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[Alec]

But in the end, I think it is more constructive if we bring elements from other areas to the table, even if we have to do it at the expense of our own social success.

I don't think its mutually exclusive to be respectful and/or friendly and have contrasting opinions. I don't think you're required to be a dick.

[Derek]

For example, sending an open letter to the IGF complaining about the lack of female judges, finding women who are involved in indie games and offering their judging services would be some positive ways to move things forward. If its an issue you care about, why not work towards improving it?

That is your opinion.

We think that people should be responsible for their own actions. And not rely on others to correct their mistakes. That is our opinion.

So you're against contributing positively to a situation you find disagreeable?

Then honestly, I don't believe that you care about whether there are women on the IGF.  You care more about maintaining this (rather strange) idea of personal responsibility than obtaining actual results.

[Tr00jg]

That is your opinion.

We think that people should be responsible for their own actions. And not rely on others to correct their mistakes. That is our opinion.

 

So you are just highlighting "their" mistakes? That's horribly passive and you want the interactive medium to grow leaps and bounds?

Gawd, do something about it!

[Michaël Samyn]

So you're against contributing positively to a situation you find disagreeable?

Not at all. I'm against my contribution being required and expected so that other people don't need to take, or be held accountable for, their responsibilities. I'm all for collaboration. I just don't think it's a replacement for personal action.

Then honestly, I don't believe that you care about whether there are women on the IGF.  You care more about maintaining this (rather strange) idea of personal responsibility than obtaining actual results.

"Strange" is in the eye of the beholder.

There are so many facets to your remark that I find it difficult to respond to it. But I'd be happy to sit down with you one day (or lie on your couch ) and try and get to the bottom of it.

Perhaps I can summarize by saying that I find it more important that the IGF cares about the presence of women in their jury. I can understand that there may be practical obstacles. And I would be perfectly willing to help remove those if I can. But first I want them to care.

[Derek]

Yes, I enjoy discussing these things!  So if you're at GDC, I'd be happy to talk to you about it more, there.  Obviously things don't always come across well over the internet.

But to clarify, what I found strange about what you said is this...

Alec suggested that, if you (and Aureia) find the panel to be objectionable, a proactive way of dealing with the situation would be to offer suggestions to the IGF organizers.  Your response was that people (in this case, the IGF organizers), should be responsible for themselves.

But YOU helping the IGF has to do with what YOU can do, and has nothing to do with the organizers or anyone else.  You would not be enabling them to be irresponsible by e-mailing them a list of potential female judges.  And you'd be doing the IGF a big favor!

And even though I know that the organizers most definitely do care about the diversity of their panel, if we pretended that they didn't for a moment... the easiest way to make them care would be to help the effort and give them ideas, not to lambast them, the chosen panel, and a good portion of the other entrants.

That's my opinion, anyway.

[fish]

myst left an imprint on me like few other things ever did or will.
you have no idea.

[Michaël Samyn]

Yes, I enjoy discussing these things!  So if you're at GDC, I'd be happy to talk to you about it more, there.

We will most probably be there!

Obviously things don't always come across well over the internet.

It's not just that. It's also a cultural difference, I think. And I know form very intimate personal experience that that's a very sensitive subject.

But to clarify, what I found strange about what you said is this...

I think I understand what you mean.
And I understand that in the light of this, our attitude seems passive. And maybe it is. To some extent. We are working very hard on making our games. That is our job and our responsibility. We don't see it as our job to co-organize the IGF.
You are right that a pro-active attitude might lead to good factual results. But we didn't realize that this was necessary (or even possible). We trusted the IGF to do their job.

But YOU helping the IGF has to do with what YOU can do, and has nothing to do with the organizers or anyone else.  You would not be enabling them to be irresponsible by e-mailing them a list of potential female judges.  And you'd be doing the IGF a big favor!

You're probably right.
It's just that we already have several very long To Do lists. We sort of count on other people to do the work on their end while we do the work on ours. It's not like we expect them to fix our problems with the A.I. in our game our something.

And even though I know that the organizers most definitely do care about the diversity of their panel, if we pretended that they didn't for a moment... the easiest way to make them care would be to help the effort and give them ideas, not to lambast them, the chosen panel, and a good portion of the other entrants.

In theory, I totally agree. I'm very much a pacifist.
But in practice, I must admit that dropping a bomb here and there sometimes delivers interesting results.

[Michaël Samyn]

myst left an imprint on me like few other things ever did or will.
you have no idea.

Tell me all about! 

I was too stupid to solve the puzzles. 

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I think the problem arises because, although females make and play and write about games, they tend not to make them as big a part of their lives as males do and don't go into them in as much depth (again, this is just a general rule, there are exceptions). There's also still much more of a stigma against playing games among females than among males. Females see it as much more of a waste of time than males do, and tend to hide that they like games from others.

So males appear disproportionately active in areas which require volunteering, like IGF judges (at least I think they're volunteers, I don't know if they're paid anything; Derek and Alec might know).

[Derek]

So males appear disproportionately active in areas which require volunteering, like IGF judges (at least I think they're volunteers, I don't know if they're paid anything; Derek and Alec might know).

Not paid.

[Guert]

Wha??? You're tellin' others comments about their games for free??? You guys disgust me... Especially Alec!

:D

[Alec]

?

[Guert]

Derek's gettin' too much attention

...

B'ah, I'm too tired, my jokes are gettin' lousier by the minute Sorry

[Tr00jg]

Derek's gettin' too much attention

...

B'ah, I'm too tired, my jokes are gettin' lousier by the minute Sorry

Don't worry. Soon you will be at me level.

[fish]

myst left an imprint on me like few other things ever did or will.
you have no idea.

Tell me all about! 

I was too stupid to solve the puzzles. 

oh, its a long story of fertile imagination, father and son bonding, my first videogame and the very important lesson that a contemplative videogame is a good thing.

[Melly]

Oh, I remember Myst. That's one game unlike any other of its time, even if the software it was built on was very primitive.

You want hard? Play Riven. Play it for a week and watch your hair disappear, your sleep go out the window, food and water become secondary and all life being drained out of you by those accursed islands!

I could look at an puzzle/exploration game in the face, once.

Though it still looked beautiful.

[Ivan]

That's why they made Pyst.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyst

[Melly]

Pyst looks pretty amusing.

[Alec]

It features full motion video of John Goodman portraying "King Mattruss".

I always wanted to play Pyst, but now that I know John Goodman's in it... going to HAVE to track it down.

I liked Myst and Riven a lot. Riven was way too cryptic, but the environments were beautiful, detailed and had good stories behind them. (the Myst book series is pretty good too)

[Average Higgins]

myst left an imprint on me like few other things ever did or will.
you have no idea.

Tell me all about! 

I was too stupid to solve the puzzles. 

oh, its a long story of fertile imagination, father and son bonding, my first videogame and the very important lesson that a contemplative videogame is a good thing.

Yeah, this was a father/son bonding thing for me too.

Somebody needs to write a book about this: "A father and his estranged son slowly reconnect as they're forced to play Myst for weeks straight while trapped inside their house by a blizzard, which hit during the mother's funeral."

Oprah would feature it in her book club and eventually it would become a crappy made-for-TV movie.