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[Schoq]

that's why they're best as a menu option that you don't have to touch unless you're confused

[gimymblert]

But you can totally weave tutorial seamlessly in spectacle and let the game start. The first thing is to have two step introduction, when the player start it doesn't know the intricacy nor the code, so he is more incline to follow convention or tell, tutorial can happen there through obvious chokepoint while keeping the game intact, then there is the player who already know the game and see code and intricacy establish later in the game they can use to get faster to the fun (for example they already know the hook allow to send the rope which is map to A, which by pass the chokepoint where you have a trial base on that).

Things can be very subtle, one of my favorite hidden tutorial is in halo, where they check your armor, they tell you to look up and down (generally after a pumping cinematic) which teach how to look AND set the y axis to what the player is comfortable to without resorting to options! other game puts you into a car and ask you to shoot things, so you learn to shoot before learning to walk and it does not stop neither the action or the narrative.

There is always way to find how to weave the tutorial and narrative without limitation and still be in the game rapidly, in fact the cod game are very good at that. The thing is to establish the stake quickly and map the information and emotion to the control order. Most game rely on interaction to mediate the story anyway, it's easy to find correspondence. I don't see it as a problem that is limiting, it's like saying close shot limit expression of cinematography ...

The last zelda is very good at pacing it's tutorial too.

[Capntastic]

Yep, we get it, sometimes tutorials can be done good.  You're right.

That's not enough to convince most people that they're worth putting up with the other 90% of the time.

[gimymblert]

the point is if they are good you won't notice them at all, so the worth discussion became a non problem.

It's like good exposition, they just don't feel like it but perfectly expose everything that is to know for the story to function.

No tutorial are like no exposition, it sour the rest of the experience by making confusion.

The discussion shoudln't be about blasting tutorial as a whole, but to understand what they make tick or not. Else it's pure non sense (manual are tutorial too).

[Capntastic]

There are a lot of games without tutorials or media in general without exposition that people tend to really enjoy.

[Capntastic]

I mean, the idea that a work of media, a work of art, needs to have a clear explanation of itself, within itself, is absurd.

[s0]

Yep that's what I was getting at.

[Capntastic]

I think that Eraserhead needed to repeatedly have David Lynch shuffle into frame to point at objects in the film and explain what the symbolism means and becoming increasingly exasperated as the rest of the characters fail to keep pace

[Capntastic]

Diegetic tutorials are worse than "menu option, opt into this" tutorials because not only does the game have to devote a level to explaining how to Use Item and Shoot Enemy for Points, but if it's skippable then you're actually creating content and expecting the player to skip out of it.

Like, if I know I can skip a tutorial in a game but it's also diegetic and "part of the story", I won't skip it because there is character development there or setting info or whatever.  It's accidentally holding that good stuff hostage behind "okay now use the left mouse button to fire your equipped weapon" stuff.

[gimymblert]

I mean, the idea that a work of media, a work of art, needs to have a clear explanation of itself, within itself, is absurd.

You can't say that and not show example, because that's not possible or you don't understand the concept of exposition.

The thing is, a tutorial or an exposition don't have to be grounded to a particular part of a game/movie. In fact generally it will happen all along the experience, it's not a located stuff.

You confuse heavy handed exposition with exposition proper.

[s0]

David lynch is kind of a dweeb anyway tbh (yes I like his work)

[Capntastic]

I mean, the idea that a work of media, a work of art, needs to have a clear explanation of itself, within itself, is absurd.

You can't say that and not show example, because that's not possible or you don't understand the concept of exposition.

The thing is, a tutorial or an exposition don't have to be grounded to a particular part of a game/movie. In fact generally it will happen all along the experience, it's not a located stuff.

You confuse heavy handed exposition with exposition proper.

I gave an example. Eraserhead has no exposition whatsoever, nothing is explained, everything is obscured or abstracted.

Unless you're going to make the case that any information being conveyed in a way the audience might pick up on is exposition, which sounds pointless and boring to discuss, it's a classic work of film that has no exposition at all.

[Capntastic]

David lynch is kind of a dweeb anyway tbh (yes I like his work)

He's a cool and goofy dude but he's where my brain goes to when churning up examples of "challenging art" that has some level of popularity. 

[Capntastic]

I mean, the idea that a work of media, a work of art, needs to have a clear explanation of itself, within itself, is absurd.

You can't say that and not show example, because that's not possible or you don't understand the concept of exposition.

I mean, let's focus on this for a second:  Are you seriously arguing that art requires a clear explanation of itself, within itself?  Does a song need to explain its lyrics?  Even keeping the topic on games, there are numerous games that never explain what "the point" of the game's story is.

[gimymblert]

Art and story are not to be confused, you are trying to pull a strawman on me. Also you can have exposition AND mystery which you refer to and is not confused one for the other. Without exposition you have confusion, with exposition you have coherence. Exposition is literally giving information, that's what tutorial do, they give you information. Exposition is the structured way to give information to make thing coherent. When people say show don't tell, they talk about the mean of exposition, so yes any information picked IS exposition and exposition is done through many channels, lacking information (as in what tutorial provide) can detrimental. But then you must understand that information don't mean explaining everything, careful information leave out (to build mystery) is not the same as confusing lack of information, its like balancing negative space. just because there is 3 acts structures with a first exposition act mean that's what exposition is limited to.

I'm sadden that discussion about this field of game design is either pointlessly disorienting intro (as in not in mystery) or heavy handedness.

There is actually 3 problems when evoking the problem:
1 - heavy handedness, as in pointing at the obvious, this might be a snob position when in the audience is already literate to pick the information up (generally through convention) without being pointed at it
2 - lack of clarity, as in the information don't actually help understand, is incoherent and build confusion.
3 - it is clashing with the experience, as in irrelevant, bad pacing, etc ...
People tend to bog down the problem to either 1+3 or 2

This is remind me a classical problem we are taught in design school:
http://vanseodesign.com/web-design/display-text-type/

[gimymblert]

Heavy handed tutorial




no tutorial




mystery



Sophistication

[Capntastic]

Damn, all that and none of it is a response to anything I said, even when challenged to provide an example.

I'm done.

[gimymblert]

I don't understand how it's not a response

[Capntastic]

That's fine

[gimymblert]

I just tried to break and parse the many concept that were lumped together and explain how they interact and why we should shift the discussion to nuances that actually solve the problem.

I cared because it's a recurring problem and cycle I have notice, the conversation usually have those broad unuseful concept where anything and everything is lumped together in an unhelpful mess from my opinion.