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[oulipian]

Make No Wonder is a browser game where you explore and disrupt a procedurally-generated wilderness landscape. It's built with HTML5 Canvas and jQuery. Wander around, collect resources, build stuff!

makenowonder.com

If you have a few minutes to check it out, I'd love any comments or suggestions. The "small" or "normal" map is recommended. It should work in any recent version of most web browsers. Let me know what you think!

I also made Favimon.

[Morroque]

There is something distinctly Canadian about this tech demo -- and not just the council sticker at the bottom. The idea of wandering this sort of vast, empty wilderness, for no other nihilistic purpose than to starve at the indifferent hands of nature and the bitter cold is just so remarkable of what I've normally found in Canadian literature. The world is beautiful, but it hates you, and from the very moment you wake up you will do nothing but suffer in your mad rush for what little sustenance you can only hope you'll find. It's so perfectly Canadian. I salute you, fellow countryman!

If your intention was only to make an arthouse game, then you've done it. Congrats, but I can't say I'd recommend this game as-is. Besides, we have enough sandbox games about procedurally generated resource extraction already. What this game needs a goalpoint; a way to "win."

I originally thought I won when I got to the research station after a long journey. "Hurrah! Civilization at last!" But the game didn't quite end there, and that confused me. I just got this rather nondescript map to only wander around with more efficient aimlessness. Then I found the crashsite, and then thought: "Mystery solved! I have recovered my memory of the terrible thing that cast me here!" But all I got from it was some stupid backpack. Perhaps I'm still in beta, but nothing, not even the patriotic sereneness of a canoe ride, stopped me from eventual starvation.

I wasn't able to look at very much of your code (nice use of multicanvas, by the way), but I think you could be able to easy give this game a sense of level progression if you generate the first level, let the player play, and in some extra space in the background generate the next level while the player is doing their stuff. When they reach an eventual goalpoint, clear the map, import the pregenned level from the back into the front, and recur. You can very easily make this into a procedurally generated orienteering game, where the player must use the tools you've already inserted (campsites, shovels/axes, raft/canoes...) to reach a goal that becomes further and further away upon each game recursion.

You can very easily create challenges on each recursion by tweaking the generation style or limiting one particular resource. A simple challenge would be to limit the rocks on a map to force the players to make quarries. A harder challenge would be limit the trees on a map with a lot of rivers, forcing players to use rockwalking as a means to cross in order to save wood for precious campsites. Another map could be an island in style, promoting use of the raft, and something that would make snares and the ziplines more necessary would be interesting too. There's possiblity here for a good 6 or 7 level game using the tools you currently have -- perhaps even an endless mode if the map sizes keep growing bigger and different regions sport different styles.

If discounting that, right now I think that the platforms aren't useful enough for their cost -- their view given is not much larger than a normal campsite. A crafting guide would be helpful too. I never figured out how to make a roof for a platform either.

[eigenbom]

u made favimon? sweet. :D

[mihai]

Interesting stuff, it keeps me playing to see what I can do next. Looks like a survival game so far, no idea what it is yet

[oulipian]

Hey MW, thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response, I really appreciate it! I love that the game reminded you of Canadian literature.

I definitely set out to create an 'arthouse' game, and to create a game that focussed on exploration. I was hesitant to even include the energy bar, but the game needed a mechanism to encourage the player to think about the most efficient way to do things, and add a little bit of tension. You can keep playing if you run out of energy, though, you just start fainting occasionally.

I know there are a lot of sandbox games that use procedural generation, but I don't think that should keep people from making new ones! There are a lot of novels, too, but that doesn't mean people should stop writing new novels.

There is a sort of ending, which I don't think you found. I don't want to give it away, but if you build a few key things and pay attention you will be rewarded.

I enjoy games where you have to figure things out, so I don't plan to offer a building guide. I've tried to hint at a few things with the FAQ and screenshots, without giving too much away. And of course anyone who really wanted to could easily look at the JavaScript and figure it out.

Thanks for trying it out!

[mihai]

I feel the "hungry" mechanic really pushes me to search new places and explore, so I think it is useful. Actually, in the spirit of the rogue-likes this game reminds me, I think the character should really die upon 0 energy. Maybe you can make that an optional stuff (like Diablo 2's hardcore mode) for the players which would like more challenge.

[Dacke]

Do you plan to add some kind of save function? I feel that it would be easier to get into the game if I was able to play it ~10 minutes at a time.

[oulipian]

A hardcore mode would be fun! I might add something like that.

I'm working on a save feature, it shouldn't be too hard to add. I want to add other stuff first, since once I add a save feature, adding other stuff could break saved games. So I feel like the save feature should come last.

I'm working on adding more buildable stuff, and some more variation in the terrain.

[oulipian]

I've launched the game! Here's a blog post with some development notes.

[ReeDill]

Nice game. Definitely my style.

The art work is very clean and consistent and I love the sense of exploration/discovery that I get in this game. I would love to see it expanded more with a bit more to do.  Perhaps more ways to get food but have it harder to capture/grow.  I was able to have 20+ rabbits in a minute in one play-through which didn't seem all that "real".

The game really reminds me of the movie Edge so I kept expecting a bear to appear!

Great work!

[zoq]

I am madly in love with wilderness survival games, and in fact one of my all-time favorites is one!

I played your game and even though I can't yet make everything, I think I have a reasonable idea of the game.



**GAME SPOILERS INCOMING**



First, it is VERY GOOD. Yeah. I'm not sure where to begin on the good stuff, because the exploration-building-survival primal urge is so hard to put into words. Camps revealing map permanently as well as axe cutting down trees made me feel very good. I was about to whine about not having a backbag to carry extra stuff, until I found one. It's possible that some of the other things I wished were in the game actually are there, in which case please tell me The map was also nice strategic aspect, but I think in addition or instead of it cartographer tools that allow you to reveal the map permanently as you explore it.

One of the main problems I had is food. Berries are very rare and replenish only a small amount of energy bar, and resting in camps usually also replenished only a little. I don't know if you have internally separate meters for food and warmth/rest, but if you do I think it would be very helpful to see them. Snares help a lot, but since it seems that their materials can't be gotten from any other place than the plane, are quite restricted geographically.

I like the "waves" in the water, but at the same time I was thinking that it would be nice to be able to build a heavier boat later (just to say it again, not instead of the canoe but some time after that), that wouldn't suffer from them and make logistics easier.

It would be very nice to see the recipes of the items that you have already built. It wouldn't take anything away from the discovery aspect, but would be very helpful for people with a leaky memory.

I think it would be nice if a boat, possibly the heavier one suggested above, had inventory space. My main problem with the game was that nowhere really felt like a home, because everywhere I went I was out of bag space. A mobile home like a boat or a larger camp would help a lot. I know that I can build many smaller camps next to each other, but that makes inventory management cumbersome (and I was always out of stones, so I didn't want to "waste" them).

Pickaxe. By the non-pickupable rocks I see everywhere I tend to think that you already have that, but I haven't seen them at all. The idea is to make stones something else that very rare.

Back to the game now, I'll send more comments if something comes to my mind

Edit ::: Birchbark doesn't tell you that it's required for boots. I don't know if this is intended or not.

Edit 2 ::: I haven't been able to build a shovel (I was able to make it when I tested this yesterday briefly, so it should be in the game), a crystal radio, a sign, or a platform roof. I found the plane and the outpost thing which had the map. I think the stepping stone could be better as a building than as an automatic feature, since stones really are a bit difficult to come by sometimes.

Edit 3 ::: Looking at the screenshots, I also haven't been able to make the roofed thing in the pic 4, which I assume is a roofed platform. I also don't know what the HELP text is in the pic 5 or the thing in the water in the pic 6.

Edit 4 ::: Was able to make both a letter and a sign

Edit 5 ::: Found binoculars (I love these kind of exploration rewards) and shells, and was able to make a shovel. Still missing crystal radio and platform roofs, at least.

Edit 6 ::: I'm not sure why I'm making these edits, but nevertheless I made a quarry and said bye-bye to the stone whine, and also was able to make the quartz radio. And, finally, platform roof. I wonder if I'm still missing something.

Edit 7 ::: I see that on rocks you can fairly well hear what is said in the radio. Is it possible to hear this message perfectly? Also, what does PTAGA mean? And is there a way to officially beat the game somehow?

Edit 8 ::: Ok, I was able to decipher the radio message and do what it says. Can I do something with the helicopter other than fly around like a boss?





**GAME SPOILERS END**

[Dacke]

I'll definitely try to play it through once you have added a save function

[Garthy]

Firstly, thanks for making the game available. It was a lot of fun to play.

Some suggestions and observations if I may:

- The game *really* needs a save mode. My first game, when I was learning to play, was a long one, and the game became more and more sluggish over time, until eventually it was unplayable. If I'd been able to save it I would have done so, closed and reloaded the browser, and loaded it back up again. Unfortunately, it wasn't an option, so when the game became unplayable, all I could do was close it down and start again. If compatibility is an issue, the save could also store a version code, in case new features are added in future releases.

- It appears as you get more hungry your max health shrinks, and when you eat it goes up. If there was an indicator on the health bar that marked the current max health, it might be easier to figure out this particular mechanic. As it is, you can get confused as to why campsites only heal you partially.

- The game can be pretty harsh initially, as your only initial food source spawns randomly. I found myself wondering why I couldn't somehow make twine from branches, and go fishing or set traps. After playing through the game, I'd actually suggest including twine, which can be used similarly to wire for traps (but not for ziplines), and is finite. This would give you something better to live on until you find the infinite wire source.

- Initially, I found myself forgetting the materials needed to make a camp. As making camps is key in the early game, is there some way to have an in-game indicator as to the recipe? I hadn't realised initially that it is in the FAQ.

- Is it possible to dig up the charcoal letters again? In my first game, I'd started out spelling "HELP", hoping it would help, but I wrote it backward and got stung by variable length letters. The second time I got it right- but to no avail. It could have been nice to be able to grab it and start again; or at the very least wash it off, as free space to write letters is actually a somewhat valuable commodity.

- You can't tell, when putting down a second platform, if it is within zipline range to the first. If there was some indication as to when something is "sufficiently" close, it would be useful. As a suggestion, in-range platforms could light up, even if you're not told *why* they're lighting up.

- Every so often when replacing traps, I'd accidentally dig a hole. Can you fill that hole back in, or does the ground forever lock out setting traps there again once a hole exists?

- I didn't really feel that creating a campsite next to a forest to generate charcoal was very intuitive. I think most people will only discover that by accident, or through careful reading of the FAQ.

- If getting the heli is effectively the end of the game, it might be worth mentioning that.

Incidentally, please don't take the above suggestions and observations as criticisms, they are just some thoughts that came up during and after playing through it. I hope they help.

[oulipian]

Hey zoq, Garthy, and ReeDill - thanks so much for the detailed feedback! I don't mind constructive criticism at all, it's super helpful. Here are some responses....

I'm really glad people are enjoying the exploration and discovery aspect of the game, that is really what I wanted the game to be about.

Definitely once you get wire and can build snares, managing energy is much easier. I need to better control how far the player starts from the wire (which is randomly in either the plane or the field station). Right now it is random, so sometimes you're right next to it, sometimes it's really far away, which affects the game difficulty a lot.

There is no invisible meter for 'rest', and your max health never changes. How it works is that each camp has a certain amount of energy, and when you stand in the camp it slowly transfers to you, until it runs out. Then when you are not in that camp but are nearby, the camp slowly regains its energy. I understand how this could be confusing, I might look at simplifying this or making it clearer.

I plan to make backpacks buildable in a future update. I am also planning to add a pickaxe that would let you destroy the small mountain tiles. I have tons of ideas for new resources to add, but I also want to make sure each resource has more than one use, so I'm adding things slowly.

I have also been planning to add a more advanced boat that is not bumped by waves, so it's nice to see people suggesting that!

Keeping track of recipes for things you've already built is a good idea... I might add an item that does that.

Right now, the item descriptions tell you a few things you can build with that item, but not everything. This is intentional but lots of people seem to find it confusing, so I'll probably tweak this a little.

A save function would be great. I've always been planning to add this, I just want to get everything else added first, since adding stuff after I've added the save function would probably break people's saved games anyway.

Right now, letters are non-removeable, and when you dig a hole you can never replace the land. This might change slightly in the future, although I've intentionally designed the game so that most of the changes you make to the environment are non-reversible.

Setting trees on fire is meant to be something that you do by mistake, that you then realize is helpful. I'm probably going to keep it that way because I think it's one of the little 'a-ha' moments that makes the game rewarding, but I do hint at it in the FAQ.

Right now the heli is the end of the game. Might develop this a little more later.

I'm working on an app as well, so it's possible that I'll save some of this stuff for the app version exclusively - have to figure out the best way to do that.

[zoq]

If I can make a strategic suggestion, leave most of the current game as is. The challenge level is quite good and adding more stuff can easily make it way easier or harder. Then, instead of changing the current game (which has a plot and an ending and thus a restricted length), start making a new game.

I mean, you could just take the current engine and start to make a game that is from the beginning designed not to be a game that will be finished in 2 hours but instead a full sandbox of a life in (and not just an escape from) the wilderness. The most familiar example of this genre is of course Minecraft, but a more accurate example of what I mean is another very good game, UnReal World.

I feel like the current game is hurting its own potential of what it could be, because now IMO it's not really worthwhile to spend much time to make anything too permanent (especially if you know what to do to escape), and for me in these kind of games the most satisfying thing is to build a home and your own territory.


Edit ::: Intended to be implicit in the above text, make the new project a commercial one.

[Garthy]

Hey zoq, Garthy, and ReeDill - thanks so much for the detailed feedback!

Not a problem, happy to help.

There is no invisible meter for 'rest', and your max health never changes. How it works is that each camp has a certain amount of energy, and when you stand in the camp it slowly transfers to you, until it runs out. Then when you are not in that camp but are nearby, the camp slowly regains its energy. I understand how this could be confusing, I might look at simplifying this or making it clearer.

Wow, here I was thinking I'd figured out the mechanic. :} In my second game I was striving to get the wire and traps out for food, thinking it was boosting my max health. From the sounds of it, the additional camps I built in the process of collecting wire and setting traps were actually the thing that was boosting my health.

Would it be possible to show some sort of energy bar in the camp window then? That way, you could see that the camp was charging you.

Keeping track of recipes for things you've already built is a good idea... I might add an item that does that.

How about: A journal? You could very well find an empty journal or paper in the field station.

Mind you, that doesn't help too much with remembering recipes early in the game. On that front- a couple of ideas:

- Perhaps the button to build a camp never actually vanishes, but is grayed out if you lack the materials. The text when you hover over it tells you the recipe.
- A popup when you first faint with the text: "You have fainted. Visit a camp or eat food to restore your health. You will need (recipe) to build a camp."

I think I prefer the first, personally.

In these sorts of games, finding the initial recipes that you need to survive can be a bit frustrating if there aren't *plenty* of clues or cues. In Make No Wonder, the initial recipe that you need to know is for the camp.

A save function would be great. I've always been planning to add this, I just want to get everything else added first, since adding stuff after I've added the save function would probably break people's saved games anyway.

Would including a version code at the start of the save file make this easier? The loading code can then check the version code as it loads the file. I have done this in my own games, and it works nicely.

Right now, letters are non-removeable, and when you dig a hole you can never replace the land. This might change slightly in the future, although I've intentionally designed the game so that most of the changes you make to the environment are non-reversible.

I just wanted to mention that when collecting rabbits and replacing traps, if you run out of wire, it switches back to a shovel. This means that the same sequence of clicks to replace say five traps when you have five wire will cause a hole to be dug on the last spot if you have four wire, forever ruining a potential trap site. Basically, there is a normal circumstance where you can accidentally dig a hole. Incidentally, if the default grab/dig icon was split in two, accidents would be pretty-much impossible.

[aeveis]

This game was pretty fun, I spent a lot of time trying to craft everything, and when I found out I could make zip-lines it was really fun to build a bunch of platforms and transverse everything. I just played the smallest map. Regaining energy was a bit confusing but it wasn't hard to keep it up... I sort of figured out the mechanic because it seemed like I would get more energy after building a new camp. Maybe you can burn things in the camp to get more energy out of it after it runs out?

Anyway fun game!

[AgentSimon]

started playing make no wonder, but then got addicted to favimon!! XD

[oulipian]

Thanks for all the suggestions... I'm working on fixing a few bugs and making it clearer how camps refill energy. I'm also planning to add a bunch of new items and buildable things soon!

[rek]

Fun, but frustrating.

• Telling me that X can be used to make Y is great, but why not tell me what else is needed to make Y?
• I keep losing track of my canoes and rafts. They should be marked on the map.
• Berries and campfires don't do nearly enough to keep you alive. I died several times before reaching the plane, but didn't notice any wire there so I didn't make snares and eventually gave up.
• I built platforms – even a covered one – early on but saw absolutely no use for them. Apparently I was missing wire, but I assumed they were meant to be a form of shelter.

Maybe I just like the idea of exploration games, but have little patience for exploration in games.