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[Rob Lach]

00101101001101001111010011

Also, something weird: I clicked quote, and noticed the quote had more text than your post.

Quoting Paul Eres reveals his brain-hijacking sub-words. That's how the TigSource community confirmed he was a mind-control bot.

[J. Kyle Pittman]

I hate comparing pirating to stealing (and the "stealing a car" analogy is the worst of all). Stealing something is a problem because it means the person you stole the thing from has to pay for it, despite the fact that you now have it. Pirating is more like sneaking in to a record store with your vinyl cutter and making a copy of a record, then sneaking back out with your new copy. The store owner still has his/her copy, but now you get to enjoy it as well. They don't have to pay for lost property or anything like if you stole a car.

The "it's not stealing because the original copy still exists" argument doesn't hold water.

IP theft is still theft.

Identity theft is still theft.

Sure, nothing physical has been displaced, so I guess maybe you could argue it's not larceny? I don't know how much of a distinction there is between the two. But either way, value has been lost.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

in that case logically you don't believe that any information about you should be private: what is your social security and credit card number. also, all your private emails: post those all here. you don't own that information, it should be public knowledge

[s0]

that was a dumb post which is why i deleted it. i wasnt being entirely serious either

[Hangedman]

IP theft is still theft.
Identity theft is still theft.

Neither of these actually fall under the heading of 'theft', really. We just use the same word for it. IP theft is misappropriation, not actual stealing. If it was, you would physically take away all of their materials related to the IP so they would not have access to them anymore. And etc. Making a copy isn't theft for the same reason.

And at least in the case of copies of purchased products, I have bought a product. A license for a product is only valid if the licenser is willing to enforce the limits of it. If I want to make a copy of something I will because it is mine to make copies of until they have the capability to stop me.

Unbought things are another matter, but that's a much murkier pool.

To quote the film industry: "YOU WOULDN'T DOWNLOAD A CAR"
To quote the internet: "I WOULD IF I COULD"

[Glaiel-Gamer]

imo there are no ethical problems with ROMs

sure there are. i've some sympathy with saying that it's not that bad, but there *are* ethical problems with it, the main one being that the people who made the game don't want you to play it that way.

If there's no reasonable way to acquire the game legitimately (i.e. rare SNES games like earthbound that you can only get used from ebay for $100), if its a game you had as a child that you dont have anymore cause you lost it / brother sold it when you moved out from home ( ), if its a dated game that you do own but would like to play with enhancements (N64 games in HD with hacked high res textures, pokemon red on 500% speed, etc), if its a game that isn't being sold anymore (i.e. only way to buy it is used, developer doesn't get money from that anyway), if the game was never released in english and theres a fan translation of it (final fantasy II & III for NES, mother), if you're trying to record a video/screenshot of the game for some purpose or another,

i'd say there's no ethical problems with any of those reasons

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

my position on IP laws is that you should respect how people want you to use their games and not pirate stuff, especially if there are ways to buy it legally, and that you should never break a eula, but that it shouldn't be a crime that people are sent to jail for either, since you aren't really harming anyone or exerting physical force or coercion

whether it's theft or not is just semantics, you can cogently argue either way, and it doesn't matter one bit what words one uses

and i totally agree that there are things which are illegal but not immoral, it's just that i don't really see how agreeing to something and then breaking what you told someone you'd do (even if it was just virtually clicking a stupid checkbox on a eula) isn't at least a little dishonest

@glaiel - i mostly agree with that, but that assumes eula-less-ness. in other words, i'd do that if i didn't agree ahead of time with a company that i would not do that. e.g. i would not buy a game, agree not to play it on the pc, and then later on play it on the pc just because i lost it and because it'd cost $100 on ebay to replace it. but if i didn't make that former agreement, then sure.

[Glaiel-Gamer]

@glaiel - i mostly agree with that, but that assumes eula-less-ness. in other words, i'd do that if i didn't agree ahead of time with a company that i would not do that. e.g. i would not buy a game, agree not to play it on the pc, and then later on play it on the pc just because i lost it and because it'd cost $100 on ebay to replace it. but if i didn't make that former agreement, then sure.

what console games have eulas anyway?

[moi]

If the console is old enough to be emulated on a standard PC then I see no problems with roms.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@glaiel: some; some aren't specific to each individual game, just to the console itself. for instance, this is the wii eula:

http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/wii/en_na/privacyEULA.jsp

@moi: you know you can emulate wii right? and nintendo ds. those are pretty recent systems

[phubans]

When it's okay to pirate software:

- When you've already purchased/paid for a physical copy of that version prior
- When the software is unreasonably priced and you're using it for individual purposes (ie; non-monetary gain)
- When the software is unavailable in your country due to limited print/no localization/discontinuation
- When you definitely plan on purchasing the software but you can't wait to use it, and then follow through on your purchase

When it's not okay:

- When the software is available and reasonably priced and you have never purchased it before
- When the software is created by an individual, independent, or small/struggling studio


That's just my personal moral code when it comes to this matter. In terms of games, I buy pretty much 99% of the games I own, even Virtual Console games on Wii that I could easily download for free and play on an emulator on my TV with a gamepad (just as good as Wii's Virtual Console). The only games that I don't purchase are rare NES/SNES/etc games that never made it to the US and aren't available for purchase in my native language.

I consider myself more of a "collector," so I typically buy my games.... Music, movies, and software, on the other hand... Well, I'm not going to get into that... 

[Drum]

They are awesome.
But Ocarina is available for paid download and if you have never bought the game, you probably should - Nintendo has a very low staff turnover and a ton of the people who worked on that game are still there and will get that money (in a roundabout way).
Paon (ex-Data East) still own the rights to Chelnov, Atomic Runner - a game I never had the opportunity to buy when I was young - and it's available to buy on Project EGG, so I signed up.
I don't care how you play the games, but you should pay for them if you can.

[s0]

Music, movies, and software, on the other hand... Well, I'm not going to get into that... 

Then don't mention it.

What makes it less bad to pirate music and movies?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

translation: if phubans pirate something it's okay to pirate it, if not then it isn't

[William Broom]

imo there are no ethical problems with ROMs

sure there are. i've some sympathy with saying that it's not that bad, but there *are* ethical problems with it, the main one being that the people who made the game don't want you to play it that way. so you're taking something they made and playing it in a way that they prefer you not play it in. so you're clearly going against the wishes of the people who made the thing you're enjoying, and doing that has ethical repercussions provided you believe that you should treat other people with respect and honor how they want you to use the things they created

But you're assuming that all creators think it's a bad thing for people to be pirating their stuff. Whereas a lot of the time I think they would be cool with it. Like, if I went to Shigeru Miyamoto and said, "Hey, would you rather I played Zelda 1 on an emulator, or not at all?" He would probably be cool with it.

But, I realise that I am also making an unfounded assumption there. So it's kind of tricky, I don't think we should assume one way or the other. Not to mention that it depends a lot on context (I figure that Miyamoto would be a lot less likely to be happy with me pirating Super Mario Galaxy 2.)

So in conclusion I guess I have no fucking clue...

[Drum]

imo there are no ethical problems with ROMs

sure there are. i've some sympathy with saying that it's not that bad, but there *are* ethical problems with it, the main one being that the people who made the game don't want you to play it that way. so you're taking something they made and playing it in a way that they prefer you not play it in. so you're clearly going against the wishes of the people who made the thing you're enjoying, and doing that has ethical repercussions provided you believe that you should treat other people with respect and honor how they want you to use the things they created

But you're assuming that all creators think it's a bad thing for people to be pirating their stuff. Whereas a lot of the time I think they would be cool with it. Like, if I went to Shigeru Miyamoto and said, "Hey, would you rather I played Zelda 1 on an emulator, or not at all?" He would probably be cool with it.

But, I realise that I am also making an unfounded assumption there. So it's kind of tricky, I don't think we should assume one way or the other. Not to mention that it depends a lot on context (I figure that Miyamoto would be a lot less likely to be happy with me pirating Super Mario Galaxy 2.)

So in conclusion I guess I have no fucking clue...

He wouldn't answer your (false dichotomy) question directly and tell you to download Zelda 1 from the virtual console.  He is a company man and he cares about the fortunes of his company.  In the past he has said he is glad people are discovering old games on roms though, iirc.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@william broom: no, not all, just some. particularly in the case of indie developers where the developers own the IP and not their employers.

[mankoon]

Has anyone ever met someone that worked at a game company that was cool with you pirating that game? Working at a game company during crunch is hell. Seeing it get pirated right after that is a smack in the sleep deprived, malnutritioned game dev's face. Year's after the devastation of completing said game, perhaps they won't care as much?

[Theophilus]

Has anyone ever met someone that worked at a game company that was cool with you pirating that game? Working at a game company during crunch is hell. Seeing it get pirated right after that is a smack in the sleep deprived, malnutritioned game dev's face. Year's after the devastation of completing said game, perhaps they won't care as much?

Orite, I also told my friend this.

[Dustin Smith]

if i could still buy an nes and the games for it, then yeah i wouldn't pirate them. but fuck paying some asshole on ebay a thousand dollars to play mr. gimmick. at that point i'm just putting money in the pockets of some fuck who doesn't care enough about the game to hold onto it. what moi said a while back fits, end of story.