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[Squirrelsquid]

For some it might be old news but I thought I'd share it with you folks, since I think it's something people all over the world should see... If you haven't, watch it now

it's a documentary on what our world might be moving into

zeitgeistmovie

[ChevyRay]

I watched that a couple months ago. Everybody I watched it with was a lot more dumbstruck than I was, though. I liked a couple of the scenes that were cleverly done, they were rather humourous

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Seen it already, was okay, not great, not bad. If you really want some good documentaries though I recommend anything Adam Curtis.

[tok]

I don't subscribe to the 9/11 conspiracy theories, I think that they are all kinds of crazy nonsense - but this movie really gets to me, because I strongly believe that organised religion is harmful to society, and the part of this movie that concerns religion describes my outlook and beliefs pretty closely; it makes the arguments and points that I'd make, and it makes them probably better than I would. But the rest of the film is at odds with the things I would think are true, and it makes me feel like the sort of stuff I'm passionate about legitimises irrational belief - which sucks, because that's the same stuff I was against in the first place.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I've a few friends who believe in 9/11 conspiracies, including my father. I don't, but I'm not one of those people who thinks that anyone who believes in them is crazy, or any more irrational than our normal human irrationality (which is incredibly high and incredibly underestimated).

I did spend a lot of time looking into the details of the various conspiracy theories, and for me it comes down to this: on Flight 93, people on board called their families and described the terrorists. Conspiracies claim those calls were faked through voice-generating software. But those calls are on record, and the callers knew details about their families that no faking could ever know: pet names, combinations of safes (!), the works. There's no way those calls were faked. To me that means that there actually were terrorists on board who crashed those planes.

[tok]

Okay, I don't think that anyone who believes in those theories is crazy - I think it's a crazy thing to believe, that the evidence itself isn't there. Lots of otherwise sane people believe in crazy stuff, and I'm really not bringing their sanity into question. I'm kind of insulated from people who carry those beliefs, but I didn't say what I said before to offend anyone.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I'm surprised anyone even can be insulated from that -- I've seen studies that said things like 30% of the people in the US believe 9/11 was a conspiracy, and it's something like 70% in some parts of the world. It's probably about as common as astrology, UFOs, and creationism now, and probably will be for hundreds of years.

What I find strange is that people (I don't mean you, but people in general) are much more harsh towards some irrational beliefs than others -- the virulence against 9/11 conspiracy theorists is a lot worse than the virulance against people who believe in horoscopes, even though, when you think about it, 9/11 conspiracies at least could *possibly* be true, there's no law of physics that they break, whereas horoscopes couldn't possibly be true unless everything we know about the universe is wrong.

[tok]

(I'm a shut-in, I'm insulated from pretty much everybody.)

I'm guessing that what you're describing is true because belief in astrology doesn't, on the surface, have the same weight as does the belief that the US government is hiding it's involvement in an event which caused the deaths of a couple thousand US citizens. That's the kind of stuff that people get edgy about, whereas astrology seems kind of benigh for the most part.

[team_q]

UFOs

To be fair, extra terrestrial life is a pretty safe bet. We have found planets capable of sustaining life in the near by solar systems. Now them coming to meet us and hiding in the fringes? thats a different story.

[Tr00jg]

After watching Zeitgeist I explored the internet for some facts. Zeitgeist doesn't tell the whole truth especially about the New World Order stuff. North American Union already established? No. No law in USA for income tax? No. I got the impression the Federal Reserve was for the most part private and that they alone controlled the flow of money. Not true.

The first part (about religions) I didn't know at all and which was pretty mind-blowing. 9/11 according to me is an outright fake, no doubt about it.

But in the end, I applaud what Zeitgeist is trying to do and everybody should watch it just to realise they should get out of the sheep-society bubble and become a proper individual and think for yourself.

[Corpus]

I dunno. I'm about 15 minutes in, so far, and I don't really like it. It's too biased; it simply isn't taking a balanced, considered approach. It's spewing a constant stream of half-truths, omissions (yes, it's actively spewing non-things), exaggeration and general small-minded, crowd-pleasing anti-religionism, if there is such a word.

This video's exaggeration is separated only from religion's hyperbole and exaggeration in that it lies at the other end of the scale. They're two extremes. I want something that finds the middle ground because, clearly, religion is not inherently evil. Like everything, it has both positive and negative aspects (nothing is black and white, and to believe otherwise is ridiculously naïve), and, like everything, its negative aspects are related less to its nature and more to the involvement of people. Religions are not the problem; people are.

It is not religions that exploit, but people, and it's also people that allow themselves to be exploited - who, as the video says, "[take] authority as the truth".

The fact that people are not already aware of the corruption present in religion (as in all other organisations) is also symptomatic of the general ignorance and inherently flawed nature of humanity. If they'd ever paid attention to a history class or, Heaven (:p) forbid, actually thought about it, it would have been perfectly clear to them.

I do not believe that, as tocky put it, "religion is harmful to society". Religion is not harmful to society. People are harmful to society.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. In a similar vein, video games don't cause violence, but can inspire violence; however, I doubt that most people here would label videogames as "harmful to society".

This doesn't mean that I won't continue to watch the film, by the way. It still seems interesting, and it does contain some truth. Just remember to be as skeptical of this as you should be of anything else.

[ChevyRay]

It's too biased; it simply isn't taking a balanced, considered approach. It's spewing a constant stream of half-truths, omissions (yes, it's actively spewing non-things), exaggeration and general small-minded, crowd-pleasing anti-religionism, if there is such a word.

Yeah? I get this every time i watch the news, turn on the radio, buy CDs, and drive by billboards.

Most people don't give enough of a shit for the truth :D so anybody who says anything otherwise is just called names and given crap for "believing in information as nonsensical as UFOs". It's like high-school bullying, just dumb.

Which is why I don't choose sides in these kinds of arguments. The information I'm getting from both sides is just as easily biased and could be untrue or misinformed.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. In a similar vein, video games don't cause violence, but can inspire violence; however, I doubt that most people here would label videogames as "harmful to society".

If they do, then they can raise their hand now! *loads shotgun*

I do not believe that, as tocky put it, "religion is harmful to society". Religion is not harmful to society. People are harmful to society.

Damn straight. This is probably the smartest thing I've heard all week! (though, 'ideas' such as religion, guns and whatnot are the manifestations of human minds, so it really just is humans causing harm, just indirectly.)

[fish]

you know the president's not the president!

[ChevyRay]

Hells yeah!

[Corpus]

I can tell that ChevyRay is a man of class because he agrees with me. Also, he has luscious facial hair and conceals his black eye with a monocle. No doubt the black eye is the result of a very gentlemanly bout of fisticuffs.

[ChevyRay]

No doubt the black eye is the result of a very gentlemanly bout of fisticuffs.

[tok]

I do not believe that, as tocky put it, "religion is harmful to society". Religion is not harmful to society. People are harmful to society.

I said organised religion is harmful to society. I draw a distinction there, not wholly unlike the one you're drawing between religion and people. That is, I don't care at all what people base their values on. People should be allowed to live however they want to live, so long as that's legal and practical. I don't like faith-based institutions that sway public opinion and legislature. I'm claiming that those are harmful, because you can't argue with reason against people who argue with faith. Those people are playing a whole different game.

[Pacian]

I do not believe that, as tocky put it, "religion is harmful to society". Religion is not harmful to society. People are harmful to society. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. In a similar vein, video games don't cause violence, but can inspire violence; however, I doubt that most people here would label videogames as "harmful to society".

I'd argue that's three different kettles of fish.  There's a distinction between things people do (eg. force their views on one another), and technological and social apparatus that enhances their ability to do those things (eg. by creating a wide-ranging network of peer-pressure).

A video game may inspire you to do harm (as may a novel or a painting or a sudden rainstorm) but it won't discharge a .45 slug at lethal velocity, nor is it likely to be a large organisation, probably including your friends and family, that's dedicated to making you suspend your critical thinking while lobbying for the political relevance of thousand year old ways of life.

Well, I guess World of Warcraft might fall into that last category.

[Squirrelsquid]

some days ago, when I posted this here, I was clearly right into this conspiracy stuff. Given the fact that my life is/was hard at this moment, I emediatly jumped at it... now some days later, I see it a bit different, still the general uncomfort remains...

Being a German, knowing what manipulation can bring, looking at the (our) horrid history of the first half of the 20th century, I just feel very alarmed.

Patriotism - fighting for the beliefes of the country - might be good if the intention behind it is right - but just face it: the stuff the American Goverment did, and is still doing, is just not right... I mean, Bush and his followers _allways_ talk about war here, war there... war EVERYWHERE.

I don't want to attack anyone personaly, especialy not the american people; I only think that it is so not good to only believe what the mass media says.

Sure Zeitgeist and many other conspiracys might be completely over the top - but realy, isn't "Al Quaida and it's holy war" not just another conspiracy?

Regarding the Church: I think, the message behind christian religion is good - but look at it: In germany there is a Church-tax! it's one of the only countries that get taxed to worship a god... Do I _realy_ need to pay money to get the message of love?

I don't even want to mention some of the Church followers in the US...

I've visited the US 4 times in my life - and I realy liked it - Friendly people, beautiful country, great cities...
I intended to visit the GDC next year - I'm not to sure anymore..._why_ do I realy need to leave my fingerprints when I enter US territory?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

"Sure Zeitgeist and many other conspiracys might be completely over the top - but realy, isn't "Al Quaida and it's holy war" not just another conspiracy?"

Yes. I don't believe 9/11 was done by remote control from a secret Pentagon lair, but I also don't believe that terrorism is as big a threat as governments wish us to believe. More people die falling out of their bathtubs each year than die of terrorism.

Governments rely on scared populaces who respect their authority, and use every trick in the book to get us more obedient and subservient, including police, schools, and the media. But they aren't lizard people and they aren't using mind control rays. There's a middle ground between blind patriotism and blind gullibility.