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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignTale of Tales discussion (now with more "state of arcade game")
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Author Topic: Tale of Tales discussion (now with more "state of arcade game")  (Read 23045 times)
im9today
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« Reply #200 on: November 26, 2011, 04:49:58 AM »

i think we're making some good progress
if only everyone had the courage to ask the difficult questions about electronic video toys (they dont because the average person is too dumb to understand when their tetris starts going backwards to show it is art THe pieces are undoing (it is a symbol)  :fedorta:
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« Reply #201 on: November 26, 2011, 10:26:41 AM »

to understand when their tetris starts going backwards to show it is art THe pieces are undoing (it is a symbol)  :fedora:




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« Reply #202 on: November 26, 2011, 10:45:44 AM »

All I'm saying is that if you're going to make story an important aspect of your game, do it well. As I said in the past, I like both games with deep mechanics and a "deep" (i.e. engaging) story, atmosphere etc. I think it's possible to combine both and it's already been done in games like Deus Ex, Demon's Souls, Vampire Bloodlines etc. but it'd be interesting to see it done more and in more diverse ways.

As for the themes, symbolism etc thing: I like identifying symbols and themes because it's fun not because I believe it reveals "deep truths about life" or w/e. Most of the time that's not the purpose of themes and symbols anyway, they exist to give the player (viewer, reader, listener etc.) something to relate to.

Not responding to your stuff as much as how Gilbert apparently seems to think that "themes" (coats of paint) that "reflect deeply on life" (not really) are what makes a game artistic, and that everything else is just frivolous "fun" filler which is not A.R.T. Also note how the themes he mentions as artistic in his post are a storybook about dealing with loss and symbolism about the 5 stages of grief. Cry
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« Reply #203 on: November 26, 2011, 11:46:24 AM »

i think having a strong unifying theme benefits any game, even those without much of a plot. but a theme can be anything, even something trivial, just as long as it's involved enough to be worth thinking about

for example, the theme of goldilocks and the three bears is how moderation is better than extremes
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« Reply #204 on: November 26, 2011, 11:48:42 AM »

I take issue with the deeply, I never imply deep

I said that in the case of nintendo, majora is surprising and use a common theme that is tied to one guy precisely. I also show that every creation they made reflect on life and give a definite set of value while keeping the fun and product mentality, UNRELATED to that majora's thingy (unless motion control and wii fit are sad theme). I never use that to exemplify ART but theme tigthly in gameplay FROM A NINTENDO perspective. Still have the failures mention previously (some gamey element are tack on just because).

For nuance I refer to the creative thread.
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« Reply #205 on: November 27, 2011, 07:19:28 PM »

Give me deus ex  Big Laff
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/deus-ex-human-revolution
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« Reply #206 on: November 30, 2011, 07:12:38 AM »

btw gimmy, just to get back to you on a discussion we had earlier in this thread about the supposed "arrogance" of gamers wanting games to be recognized as art: i think a lot of that is a (over?)reaction to the social stigma associated with videogames.

you said that every "non-epic" game is met with "pure hatred" by gamers, but the truth of the matter is that videogames are generally met with pure hostility from people outside of our small nerd ghetto. just to give you some context, i live right next to a country (germany) whose government has been openly pondering not only banning violent videogames but going as far as to criminalize their possession even for private use for some time now. forgive me if i'm being a bit defensive.

right now, i don't even want games to be recognized as "high art" or whatever, i'd already be more than happy if they were recognized as a valid form of entertainment.
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« Reply #207 on: November 30, 2011, 09:34:11 AM »

I can understand that, my position is that it does not change a thing, both direction is not great. To claim art only for ourself or deny art entirely (just a game) is the same face of the problem. It's a problem of recognition. Actually almost any culture I grew up with have this problem, as a gamer, a caraibean, assimilate black person, an artist too, anime, internet, comics, you name it ... they all have this social stigma and they all fight for recognition tooth and nail. The solution is never to separate oneself and look down back to other.

But the point is never to achieve high art, but to recognize goal from high art is worth pursuing, That's totally different, it's not about recognition and status, it's all about maturing and growing as a medium, of course, the more you have to offer, the more easy it is to get you seriously, but do we really need external validation? If you need it then there is a reason to look down at you to not be worth enough to exist for yourself.
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« Reply #208 on: November 30, 2011, 10:06:53 AM »

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do we really need external validation? If you need it then there is a reason to look down at you to not be worth enough to exist for yourself.
not so much validation as tolerance. i can deal with being seen as a nerd, but just being in a position where my perfectly harmless hobby isn't under threat to be criminalized for ridiculous populist reasons would be great.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #209 on: November 30, 2011, 11:33:33 AM »

I think an external temporary censorship is great for any young medium to develop a true voice. But you'll never know how temporary they will get Huh? It will force creator to make a point against the censorship by exploring fringe of the expressive power that borderline the censorship. Movie did well, however it has cripple comics for a long time who had a bad start with childish theme and narrow convention.

Oh and leigh chime in the debate, theme and gameplay:
http://sexyvideogameland.blogspot.com/2011/11/revisiting-my-favorites.html
http://sexyvideogameland.blogspot.com/2011/11/metal-gear-solid-and-uncommon-in-common.html
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« Reply #210 on: November 30, 2011, 01:54:51 PM »

another benefit of censorship: much easier to be a "revolutionary artist sticking it to the man" lol.

censorship already exists in germany and game developers work their way around it by removing blood and ragdoll physics from their games and occasionally replacing human enemies with "robots" which mostly amounts to giving them greyish skin textures. either that or they just plain don't release the game in germany at all.

censorship breeding creativity would only work if the censorship existed in a major market for videogames (like the US or the entire EU). even for german devs like crytek, germany is just a side market.

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« Reply #211 on: November 30, 2011, 02:46:10 PM »

http://kotaku.com/5860138/innovation-has-never-been-the-cornerstone-of-the-video-game-industry also relevant
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« Reply #212 on: November 30, 2011, 03:59:35 PM »

the game industry isn't based around innovation because it's an industry. i didn't really need a page-long kotaku article to explain that to me. industries only innovate when they can't milk a formula anymore.

i think that even in the "indie world," (or at least the commercial indie world), product orientation still dominates over "artistic" values. the innovations made by high-profile games almost always seem to be the ones that are the easiest to sum up in a catchy marketing blurb (i.e. gimmicks). what i'd like to see is more great games that completely sidestep the formulas set by the market and challenge its domninance.

also this
Quote
"wrong with the game business" and whatnot, speaking of how he came from an "era that watched innovation reign supreme"

isn't unique to games. it's a combination of nostalgia and selective perception. you can observe the same phenomenon with people who listen to exclusively "classic rock." the works that are remembered are usually the ones that made an impact in some way while most of the less remarkable ones are forgotten.

i'll concede that the music industry genuinely promoted (or at least accepted) innovation for a brief period between the late 60s and the early 70s though. i could elaborate a bit as to how that came to be and why nothing comparable has happened in the game industry but i'll save that for a later post.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 07:27:59 PM by C.A. Sinclair » Logged
AshfordPride
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« Reply #213 on: December 08, 2011, 08:32:45 AM »

Oh my god, guys, why did I have to find this thread now.  I have a final in a fucking hour and I can't tear myself away...  You people are going to be directly responsible for my subpar grade in Principles of Advertising. 
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« Reply #214 on: December 08, 2011, 10:29:16 AM »

Oh my god, guys, why did I have to find this thread now.  I have a final in a fucking hour and I can't tear myself away...  You people are going to be directly responsible for my subpar grade in Principles of Advertising.

The solution is to write your timed essay on how Braid's advertising campaign made it a game that embodies A.R.T. (Augmented-Revenue Tactics.) Make an approximate picture of the game using ASCII handwriting symbols and multiple color pens, to take up an entire page. Then all you have to do is namedrop feng shui or McLuhan and you're set.
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« Reply #215 on: December 08, 2011, 10:30:14 AM »

Reading this article, I find it a little hard to follow.  I don't know if that's due to the fact that they aren't native English speakers, it has been translated, or if they are just that nuts, but I feel like I'm missing something from everything they say.  I feel like I'm just missing something in this conversation.  I feel like they drift from topic to topic in a seamless and jarring transition about things that I...  I really can't even begin to grasp!  I'm not saying I'm stupid here, I'm not, I just have a hard time comprehending the way this interview is moving.

So, what I have learned about this that really jumps out at me is how happy they are to be isolated from other video games, and other media in general!  Quite frankly, I find it nothing short of horrifying that an artist would be happy to be isolated from the rest of his medium.  Art is built on experiences, it's built on what you know and what you see, and that the tots are happy to be in their own little bubble, carefully isolated from the influence of IDEAS is really disturbing!  I can't think of a filmmaker, musician, artist, or writer who would dare to be so bold as to say that they enjoy an isolation from the rest of their fellow artists.  I know they see the industry as a corrupting influence, but they have to be aware of it if they hope to rebel against it with any degree of success!  You can't be the un- to games if you don't know what games are!  Some snide remarks on how they are trashy low culture crap doesn't count!  Play them, hate them, EXPERIENCE SOMETHING YOU EMPTY SHELLS.  I don't know if this is what they mean, because again I'm having a hard time understanding them, but it seems as though they are very eager to just ignore what's going on because a few extreme examples have left a bad taste in their mouth.  

Quote
I think all of those things can be expressed with things that are very much unique to the medium, and all that. And I would actually argue that gameplay is one of the strange components that is not unique to the medium, that comes from that old age-old history of playful interaction between humans, with sports. It, in and of itself, is an alien factor. I'm not against alien factors. I really think we should embrace as much as we can, and mix it all up.

Reading this, I froze up.  And I don't mean in the 'Oh, Sam, that's so whacky to imply that what they said was so silly that you reacted to it in such a way!'  I read this as if someone had handed me a card that said 'Your family has died in an accident, I am very sorry.'  It's that startling realization that just causes a shut down followed by a panicked reaction as you reread it in disbelief, hoping that somehow you are misinterpreting the very plain message being delivered to you.  

Being a game is the alien aspect to video games.  

I'm not trying to be cute or snarky here, I'm legitimately having a hard time parsing this because it's so far flung from the way I think and just feels so incredibly aggravating to consider.   It's like these people are talking about how they are novelist who absolutely detest having to use written language to convey their stories in books.  It's just so bizarre...

Quote
They're taken for granted, but within very strict limitations. Like, you can't really experiment with that. So, if you deviate from the convention, players will respond, "Oh, that's bad!" Try doing AWSD, and change it to AZWD or something. People would freak out! And I would call that an aesthetic assessment, actually. Aesthetic appreciation is also about recognition...

You know, I remember a while on /v/ someone was trying to convince everyone to switch their key bindings on all games with this configuration to ESDF rather than WASD, or something similar.  Some people prefer it, and they can defend why they do.  They say it's a lot easier to reach Shift, Control, and Alt this way and that it allows your fingers to rest in a more natural position.  Personally, it makes my ring finger hurt.  

What the tots suggest is that we do this because it would be crazy, and because it would just knock those FPS kiddies square on their ass as we enjoy some high context amusement at their expense.  It baffles me to think how the human hand could contort to play with the bindings they are suggesting.  Now, I'm sure this was just said on the fly to illustrate how defying conventions is jarring to the audience, but I think it demonstrates a key difference between how I, a normal human being, deviates from the tots.  I need reason and I need sense.  I need to know why something is being done and I need it to be adequately defensible for me to consider it.  I would like to think that that is the nature of progress in art.  Radical, unsupportable deviations from the status quo will surely shock people but they won't really accomplish anything in the grand scheme of the medium.  When artists simply think 'Wouldn't it be crazy if..." they can create something weird, interesting, and unique.  When artists then thinks "I'm going to do something crazy because..."  It becomes a lot more important to the medium as a whole, and becomes a piece that is reflective on where the artform is and where it can become.

It just feels like the sort of people who don't have a real grip on art, the kind of people who think Picasso painted those chicks all ugly because he was just soooooo cuh-razy and we like it because it's in a museum.  Their art has no consideration of where their medium is or how it got there, which is something that a radical, sweeping change NEEDS to have to sustain it.

Another thing I don't like is the creation of this sort of mystique they have.  That they are the underdog outsider trying to take theirs in a world out to get them.  It's a cheap ploy to get the viewer to sympathize with them, who has been trained to root for the unappreciated artist trying to make it in a world that may not understand his genius, but soon will!  


SHORT VERSION:
Tots are ill-equipped to make video games because they are babies who poop hard in their diapers and cannot understand them.  






edit edit edit edit:
Just wanted to say, didn't have a lot of time to write and just wanted to kill twenty minutes and give my impression on the article.  Kind of didn't want to open up the can of worms of talking about what you guys are on, but I just want to say that everyone participating in this thread is doing a very good job of creating a very interesting read that proves to be very fascinating commentary.  Funny how that works, it seems like threads about tots are always much more interesting than tots themselves!   Thanks guys.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 10:42:12 AM by Samtagonist » Logged
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« Reply #216 on: December 08, 2011, 12:07:01 PM »


Quote
I think all of those things can be expressed with things that are very much unique to the medium, and all that. And I would actually argue that gameplay is one of the strange components that is not unique to the medium, that comes from that old age-old history of playful interaction between humans, with sports. It, in and of itself, is an alien factor. I'm not against alien factors. I really think we should embrace as much as we can, and mix it all up.

Reading this, I froze up.  And I don't mean in the 'Oh, Sam, that's so whacky to imply that what they said was so silly that you reacted to it in such a way!'  I read this as if someone had handed me a card that said 'Your family has died in an accident, I am very sorry.'  It's that startling realization that just causes a shut down followed by a panicked reaction as you reread it in disbelief, hoping that somehow you are misinterpreting the very plain message being delivered to you.  

Being a game is the alien aspect to video games.  

I'm not trying to be cute or snarky here, I'm legitimately having a hard time parsing this because it's so far flung from the way I think and just feels so incredibly aggravating to consider.   It's like these people are talking about how they are novelist who absolutely detest having to use written language to convey their stories in books.  It's just so bizarre...

Well this is not so difficult to understand.
There is a good part of the ancestry of modern AAA games that comes, not from NES or arcade games but from multimedia computer experiments from the past.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that gameplay is alien, but a good part of what comprises modern videogame doesn't not com from gameplay ancestry.

think for example of things that came from the amiga/atari ST world: demoscene, cinemaware style of games, etc...
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« Reply #217 on: December 08, 2011, 12:16:44 PM »

Quote
think for example of things that came from the amiga/atari ST world: demoscene, cinemaware style of games, etc...
dragon's lair, 7th guest and other fmv games
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« Reply #218 on: December 08, 2011, 12:35:37 PM »

If they replaced word video game with rich media (or virtual environments given it's what they care most about) everything would make sense.

Or, more like, nobody would care.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 12:43:23 PM by mirosurabu » Logged
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« Reply #219 on: December 08, 2011, 12:56:29 PM »

Of course they are babies, but baby eventually grew up and can came out with fresh idea, that's what I like with TOT, they have fresh mind so they can slay the sacred cow and fail better than I could ever do, just to raise by trial and error something interesting. They already acknowledge their failure and clean their misunderstanding, they obviously lack literacy and are totally foreign to the culture. I don't think they are like "let do crazy things just because".
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