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[s0]

Higher production values generally mean a game with more meat on its bones – an involving story, a wider variety of challenges that keep you challenged right up to the end, and just more game than you're likely to find in something made in Flash/for your phone/hosted by ConglomoWebGames.

Both Braid and Portal have VERY little content though. A lot less than you'd find in popular flash puzzle gams.

But what content they have is quite varied and/or allows for greater and greater complexity, which means the challenge is there. They're also the type of game you can beat and then beat a little differently the next time – rewind here instead of there, pop out of the wall instead of the ceiling, etc. The old "a minute to learn, a lifetime to master" factor. You aren't going to beat any level of Pursuit of Hat differently the next time through (at least from what I saw of the first ~15 levels).

I found Braid and Portal a lot less challenging than Time Fuck (a flash game) and Lup Salad (not flash but low production values and tons of levels).

Also yeah you can play the levels "a little differently" if you're really into that but it doesn't change the fact that both are linear games with single-solution puzzles.

[rek]

But what content they have is quite varied and/or allows for greater and greater complexity, which means the challenge is there. They're also the type of game you can beat and then beat a little differently the next time – rewind here instead of there, pop out of the wall instead of the ceiling, etc. The old "a minute to learn, a lifetime to master" factor. You aren't going to beat any level of Pursuit of Hat differently the next time through (at least from what I saw of the first ~15 levels).

I found Braid and Portal a lot less challenging than Time Fuck (a flash game) and Lup Salad (not flash but low production values and tons of levels).

I didn't say challenge alone was the determining factor; I actually said the opposite, that there are multiple factors working in tandem and they can generally be attributed to a level of production value you don't find in every game.

Also yeah you can play the levels "a little differently" if you're really into that but it doesn't change the fact that both are linear games with single-solution puzzles.

Most games are – I'm not sure why that needs to be pointed out – but there are some you have more fun playing, and replaying, than others.

[stevesan]

I think high-concept has a lot to do with the success of Portal and Braid as well. There are tons of games that are fun and interesting to play, but if you can hook the player on some point of interest with just 10 seconds of non-playable concept pitch, then it makes a whole world of difference since getting people to step through the door is often the hardest part.

Very true as well. The sheer coolness of infinite time travel and arbitrary portalling made the two games buzz-generators from even watching 10 seconds of their trailers.

[stevesan]

This thread is making me nervous. I'm working on a Flash game with the intent on creating something smart and atmospheric like these game you guys have mentioned. I'd like to think the people who play Flash games would like something like this as a change of pace from the norm - but maybe the audience just isn't that interested in smart or 'arty' games...

Then again it's probably not wise to generalize 'people who play flash games'. I feel like most internet users have played at least one flash game in their life right?

Hehe no please don't let the stereotyping of Flash game players discourage you. I can think of a few examples of really atmospheric Flash games that succeeded, such as "The Company of Myself", "Continuity", and that one game with lights that escapes me. So, while it's working against you a bit, I think it's perfectly possible to make a tasteful game in Flash. Go forth and kick ass!

Now, some Flash games actually get turned into full-fledged games. That light game (again..forget its name..argh) is actually being re-developed for PSN now. So I guess the question we're asking here is, what makes that stand out from other Flash puzzle games?

I think we've established that atmosphere, marketability (which has to do with the "wow" factor of the concept itself), length (hopefully without filler), and production values are all important for a "larger" release game (ie. something you can make more money and get more recognition out of).

[vinheim3]

Right mix of tmosphere is definitely necessary.

Having a unique concept helps a lot (but you can take an overused, beaten-to-death concept and make an extremely popular game out of it because, again, polish and atmosphere can play huge roles).

Length doesn't seem to make any difference about how much the game can sell. I mean, even with reviews and descriptions, you never really know how long a game is until you play it (Tales of Symphonia is extremely long, VVVVVV is extremely short).

Production value is a great way to hire those people who can polish the game (more detailed graphics, better-orchestrated music, programmers who can put in better effects, etc). But even people with no money can make a beautifully-polished game. Simple things like text fading in and out, menus swooping in from outside of the screen, voice acting, cutscenes, points attained hovering above character's head before disappearing (I think some Legend of Zelda games had the latest rupee attained hover above your head).

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

MARKETING

this is the best answer

if portal and braid were not marketed to high heaven, they wouldn't stand out from the huge number of puzzle games that fewer people know about, like spacechem

this is easier to appreciate if you consider the example of angry birds

i feel that a lot of people scratch their heads and theorize about "why does this game do better than this other game? what's the difference between the two *games* that made one a success and the other not a success?" when the answer is that it really has nothing to do with the attributes of the games at all, but with forces external to the games

that is particularly notable in how well different games do in different countries; because they are often marketed differently in different countries, you often see a wide difference in how well games sell in different countries. and sure it could be the "culture" but the culture of the UK is pretty similar to the culture of america (relatively, i mean), and yet games which sell well in one place don't often sell well in the other

[moi]

I don't believe what I read, I just skimmed the thread but I think I read some people saying that flash games had more content than portal (I won't mention braid because I never played it)
Obviously some people are either delusional or extremely biased toward 2D minigames around here.
also someone else saying that marketing was all that differentiated them and someone else agreeing.
this is ridiculous.

[bart_the_13th]

This picture alone is more than compelling to me

[stevesan]

I don't believe what I read, I just skimmed the thread but I think I read some people saying that flash games had more content than portal (I won't mention braid because I never played it)
Obviously some people are either delusional or extremely biased toward 2D minigames around here.
also someone else saying that marketing was all that differentiated them and someone else agreeing.
this is ridiculous.

Welcome to the internet

Yeah, marketing helps a lot, but only to an extent. At the end of the day word of mouth helped both Braid and Portal a ton more than raw marketing power did.

And.....you really need to play Braid!

[stevesan]

This picture alone is more than compelling to me

Haha yeah. I always thought it was interesting that they bothered making the infinite-mirrors thing work in-game, yet it was never really necessary for the game to "work." Yet, it was undeniable just how cool that was.

[Mipe]

I think he meant the, um, you know, them curves...

[stevesan]

I think he meant the, um, you know, them curves...

Haha yeah that sure doesn't hurt the appeal..

[stevesan]

Right mix of tmosphere is definitely necessary.

Having a unique concept helps a lot (but you can take an overused, beaten-to-death concept and make an extremely popular game out of it because, again, polish and atmosphere can play huge roles).

Length doesn't seem to make any difference about how much the game can sell. I mean, even with reviews and descriptions, you never really know how long a game is until you play it (Tales of Symphonia is extremely long, VVVVVV is extremely short).

Production value is a great way to hire those people who can polish the game (more detailed graphics, better-orchestrated music, programmers who can put in better effects, etc). But even people with no money can make a beautifully-polished game. Simple things like text fading in and out, menus swooping in from outside of the screen, voice acting, cutscenes, points attained hovering above character's head before disappearing (I think some Legend of Zelda games had the latest rupee attained hover above your head).

Hmm you make a good point about length not being a huge factor, past a certain threshold. Portal was only around 2 hours, being generous, but I thoroughly enjoyed it and did not feel ripped off at all (and it was a damn good deal with the orange box). The perceived uniqueness and originality of the game and the sheer quality of the experience made it worth it. Same with Braid, although Braid is much longer and denser than most puzzle games out there - with almost zero filler. So I think length matters, but in a very complex way beyond just "longer is better."

I guess when it comes down to it, presentation does matter a lot to the "value" of a game. People can kind of tell subconsciously how much effort has been put in a game. All those little details add up, and when they're not there, the perceived value is naturally diminished. With a game like "Trine," you can really see the love that is put into the art. Same with Braid and Portal. Little touches like the Companion Cube don't just happy accidentally.

There's also just the "coolness" factor. I'm all for SpaceChem, but it definitely does not have the "cool" factor.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

if you think portal is cooler than spacechem you have a weird understanding of cool

[rivon]

It is cooler for me too... I didn't really play Spacechem but it didn't catch me from the trailers, screenshots etc. Portal did. I really wanted to play it. Spacechem not.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

portal is steve jobs cool

spacechem is jocelyn bell burnell cool

[deathtotheweird]

portal is cool because it makes me feel smart even though I'm dumb

spacechem is dumb because it makes me feel dumb because I am dumb

[stevesan]

if you think portal is cooler than spacechem you have a weird understanding of cool

Well all this is just my own opinion really. Some people agree with me, some don't. I enjoy and value games like Braid and Portal, so I think they're cool and worth buying, and so I want to make games like those. If you disagree that's cool too.

I guess the title of this thread should really be, "Why do I like games like Braid and Portal more than other puzzle games?"

[rivon]

portal is steve jobs cool

spacechem is jocelyn bell burnell cool

Who's Jocelyn Bell Burnell?

[dustin]

portal is steve jobs cool

spacechem is jocelyn bell burnell cool

Who's Jocelyn Bell Burnell?

astrophysicist who discovered pulsars



For me Braid and Portal stand out because they are such tight experiences.  They both felt like they had no fluff and were smooth to play through.

That said spacechem feels the same for me and I feel like the reason it didn't do as well as the other two is just target markets.

Spacechem is super complicated and only going to appeal to a limited group of people, it has a pretty narrow scope of people who look at it and say wow that's cool.

Portal and Braid almost anyone who sees the concepts/demos of them is going to say wow that looks cool.  They have a much bigger market size.