next »

[Soulliard]

I figure that since we have permission, we may as well start discussing everyone's favorite tar ball.

This move list is just a suggestion. Since we have a lot of room to be creative here, I'd like to hear your ideas, too.

I went with more of a traditional set of moves, but since Gish is amorphous, I thought of another possibility. He could change his shape for some of his attacks (into, say, a hammer, drill, or sawblade). This might look pretty cool, but it could also be a bit too much of a diversion from the source material.




Stats- Gish is a lightweight but agile character. His attacks are quick and strong, but his health is a bit low. He is capable of wall jumping and climbing up walls (press right or left into a wall).

A- Bite- Gish jumps forward and chomps down. The attack is quick and can be used in rapid succession.

>A- Tackle- Gish compresses himself and then launches forward, bouncing off his target.

^A- Spikes- Spikes extend around Gish's body, and retract shortly after.

vA- Flatten- Gish flattens and flows, hitting enemies on both sides. While flattened, he is very briefly invulnerable.

vA (air) - Bounce- Gish flies towards the ground, creating a large shockwave on impact and bouncing back into the air. Once it gets started, the attack can be repeated very quickly.

S- Tar Launch- Gish fires a blob of tar as a projectile that is affected by gravity.

>S- Slippery Form- Gish slides quickly to the side. He is immune to attacks while sliding.

^S- Inflate- Gish inflates himself with a large breath of air. He drifts a short distance upwards and pops, damaging those nearby and emerging unharmed.

vS- Heavy Form- Gish takes a more solid form for as long as the key is held. While in this form, he is immune to knockback, he falls more quickly, and he deals damage on contact relative to his velocity. However, he can't attack, and he moves very slowly.

Alternately, this could be a traditional stall-then-fall attack.

[Winterous]

As a character he'd be interesting, but I think you've gone about his attacks the wrong way.
How I'd do it.


^A: Air tackle, he leaps into the air after a short delay, and tries to hit you, if he makes contact the enemy gets forced into the air and takes significant damage. In the air, does basically the opposite of A in the air, but much less powerful.

A: Flowing impact, basically a punch, he shifts his mass around and hits you hard, pushing you away a lot but doing little damage. In the air would be a downward force, but no damage, allowing him to 'jump' off your head if he hits you from above. Might have a delay before hitting, to prevent spam.

>A: Roll, he dashes quickly at an opponent, damaging them and phasing through them, allowing for repeated attacks dashing back and forth. If in the air, he spins around briefly and damages anyone he touches.

vA: He flattens himself against the ground, slightly hurting people he touches (he spreads quite far) and dodging most attacks, but only a very brief dodge, to prevent immortality. In the air, he merely drops quickly, in order to avoid attack, but does no damage.

^S: Air throw, he forces against the ground and leaps into the air, if he makes contact with you he throws you into the ground, down and forwards (from Gish) a bit. In the air he would just wobble a bit, and if he touches you he throws you similarly, but less fast.

S: Tar throw (I agree, he needs a projectile), he spins on the ground and launches blobs of tar at you, doing decent damage and sticking to you, which makes you fall faster, but they fall off after a while. Works the same in the air, but a different animation and they travel less fast. If the blobs land on the ground after detaching, Gish can pick them up to recover his health, slightly more than you used on the attack; using this attack uses a small amount of health for every shot fired.

>S Absorb, after a fairly long preparation time (a second or two), Gish launches himself forward a decent distance; if contact is made with an enemy, he 'absorbs' them. In the air he just wobbles a lot, trying to 'reach' at you, but doesn't move differently.

vS: Hard form (once again agreed), if in the air he falls down quickly, anyone he lands on takes pretty solid damage and gets knocked around, he then keeps in the form as long as the button is held, like he used it on the ground. If on the ground it's sort of a 'guard' maneuvre, he holds in solid form and resists attacks, not taking any knockback and receiving reduced damage (half-ish). Takes a short while to come out of, during which he is completely immobile and vulnerable to anything, but initiates almost instantly, he can move very slowly in this form.


Now, for his special stuff.
Yeah, wall jumping and climbing is a good idea, but climbing should be very slow.

Now, his unique ability.
The more health Gish has, the more powerful his moves are, and the faster he moves and higher he jumps.
At 100%, he's normal, at 1%, I'd say about a third of his normal power.
Every time he damages an opponent (only enemies, not environmental stuff or items) he gains an amount of health proportional to the damage caused, but still quite a small amount.

How 'absorb' works.
Gish basically becomes much larger, and the enemy is 'inside' him (remember, this attack is quite easy to dodge or interrupt).
Every second the enemy is inside him, he gains a fair amount of health and the enemy loses the same amount (maybe 5?), this is not scaled based upon his current health.
The amount of time the enemy is trapped IS scaled however, and after that time is over (maybe 10 seconds at 100%, 4 seconds at 1%) Gish is ruptured and the enemy escapes, this causes a very large amount of damage to Gish. The time scales up as he absorbs health from the enemy.
However, Gish can 'spit out' the enemy before this time is up, using the directional A attacks for direction, this deals no damage and merely throws the opponent. The force of the throw is scaled based upon his health.
Note that yes, this attack is one of desperation, as it is an effective way to recover health and can be used as a 'suicide' attack (ie: Absorbing them and jumping off the level, killing both). It is too easily avoided to be relied upon however, as it would easily be over powered.

The reason for the health scaling is that most of his attacks are mass-based, the more mass he has, the more influence he has over his opponent, this is exactly how the game will work in Gish 2.
The idea behind the 'health leeching' is that he is stripping the enemy of their mass (or flesh), and adding it to his own.
And yes, the less health he has, the less health he gains, meaning that he is a character ALL about managing health and avoiding damage. At 100% health he is extremely powerful (mainly knockback, but decent damage) and quite fast and agile (no double-jump however, just high jumps); but the lower his health is, the easier he becomes to defeat.



The primary issue I see with creating this is the sprites.
He's all about fluid motion, and that's difficult to do in pixel-art.

Also WOW, I only thought about this stuff after reading your post.

[JLJac]

whoa, poor programmers.

What about an easy version: When he has much health he is heavy, but deals more damage, when he has little health he is slightly weaker, but faster and more agile.

Would be very much simpler, but still more interesting than just a standard character.

[Soulliard]

I'll respond in more detail to your suggestions when I have more time, but for now I just have one question.

How would either of those suggestions work in Smash mode?

[Winterous]

I'll respond in more detail to your suggestions when I have more time, but for now I just have one question.

How would either of those suggestions work in Smash mode?

You mean when you don't have health?
Like in SSB?
Higher damage = 'less health', capped at like, 200 or something.
Or is there no damage either?

In that case you could 'simulate' his health, by giving him a damage bar capping at 99, which decreases like he would recover health.

[William Broom]

I think I like Soulliard's movelist better, since it has more variety in it, such as the spikes, biting, and inflating like a balloon. However, one thing I think is missing from both lists is a representation of sticky form. Since he only really has 3 moves in the original game (slip, stick, heavy) we should have room to include all of them.
I thought sticky form could just be a grappling attack, like he sticks to them and then thrusts them away again. I don't know where it could fit into his movelist, though. Perhaps it could replace his projectile or his A> tackle.

I think him getting weaker as he loses health is not a good idea. Most players probably wouldn't notice it (either the weakness of their attacks, or the fact that they can regenerate health by dealing damage) because they aren't paying much attention to the health bars. Forcing him to pay in health for a lousy projectile would just make it even worse.

JLJac's suggestion is better, but I don't think it fits the character very well. I can't really imagine Gish as a fast and agile fighter even if he has lost most of his mass.

[Winterous]

I think I like Soulliard's movelist better, since it has more variety in it, such as the spikes, biting, and inflating like a balloon. However, one thing I think is missing from both lists is a representation of sticky form. Since he only really has 3 moves in the original game (slip, stick, heavy) we should have room to include all of them.
I thought sticky form could just be a grappling attack, like he sticks to them and then thrusts them away again. I don't know where it could fit into his movelist, though. Perhaps it could replace his projectile or his A> tackle.

I did do his sticky form.
His ^S, how do you think he throws them?
He uses the sticky surface and his quick rotation to thrust them downwards.

Gish is an utterly unique character, he can't just have various bashing moves, there needs to be leagues of difference between him and the 'normal' characters.

[Soulliard]

As a character he'd be interesting, but I think you've gone about his attacks the wrong way.
How I'd do it.

If you're expecting Gish to fight exactly like he does in his game, it's not going to happen. There are too many differences between engines for this to conceivably work well.

He still needs to fight like an Indie Brawler, and that means that at least some of his attacks need to have reach. Hence my suggestion for moves like Spikes. If he doesn't have any reach, he'll be gimped against any weapon-wielding opponent, like Turner or Nikujin. Also, his attacks need to be readable, so what is happening is immediately obvious. Some of the moves you suggested would probably not be readable enough.

^A: Air tackle

This move doesn't sound very readable. Part of the motivation for making a move like Spikes was that Gish would need an attack with at least some reach. Replacing it with an attack with no reach would limit Gish's approaches significantly and gimp him against a number of characters.

FYI, spikes is based on the small spikes that come out of his body in sticky form.

A: Flowing impact

This is not a bad suggestion, but I feel that a bite is more memorable and readable. Gish has a huge fanged mouth, so I don't see how it would be out of character.

>A: Roll

This is similar to my suggestion, except for the phasing part. Which doesn't seem to fit Gish well at all, since he never phases through enemies, and it doesn't seem to fit to have him dashing back and forth. That fits better for Trilby and Nikujin.

vA: He flattens himself against the ground, slightly hurting people he touches (he spreads quite far) and dodging most attacks,

I actually really like this suggestion. It's a unique and memorable attack. Altering a character's hitbox isn't possible in the engine, and attacks are not designed with ducking in mind, but it could be approximated by making sure Gish is really flat, and giving him very brief immunity. I may add this to the movelist.

In the air, he merely drops quickly, in order to avoid attack, but does no damage.

This is a huge no-no. One of the most common complaints about the release is that there was not enough distinction between standard and special attacks. Adding a standard attack that doesn't deal damage is going to make the problem much worse.

^S: Air throw,

I can't imagine this attack being very readable. Nor do I think of Gish as a grappling character.

Also, downward throws are very powerful, since they can act as spikes, and should not be added lightly.

S: Tar throw (I agree, he needs a projectile)

Increasing the target's weight is far too obscure an effect to be worth including. Since it's not an exceptional projectile, making it cost hp is probably too much of a drawback, since Gish needs whatever approaches he can get.

Now, his unique ability.
The more health Gish has, the more powerful his moves are, and the faster he moves and higher he jumps.

This is a huge positive feedback loop (in other words, it favors the player who is already winning). Implementing a system like this would mean that the winner of the match would be determined almost immediately. It's not an appropriate system for a fighting game. Plus, it's obscure, and the health drain doesn't fit Gish (he's not a vampire).

As a side note, this would result in the early game being incredibly defensive, but you suggested removing Gish's only good defensive move.

How 'absorb' works.

Why do you hate the programmers? 

Anyways, without the positive feedback loop, this is a pointless move.

Gish 2

Considering it's been two years since any news about Gish 2 has been released (to my knowledge), I wouldn't hold your breath.

What about an easy version: When he has much health he is heavy, but deals more damage, when he has little health he is slightly weaker, but faster and more agile.

This would be a better system, since there is no positive feedback loop. Gish isn't weaker at low health, just different.

It still suffers from being somewhat obscure, though, and a system like this isn't really needed in a straightforward fighting game.

However, one thing I think is missing from both lists is a representation of sticky form.
I thought sticky form could just be a grappling attack, like he sticks to them and then thrusts them away again. I don't know where it could fit into his movelist, though. Perhaps it could replace his projectile or his A> tackle.

Spikes are just a larger version of the spikes that appear around him in sticky form. Also, he can climb walls (which is the main use of sticky form).

My fear is that a grappling move wouldn't be readable enough. Nor is it really necessary, since he has tons of short-ranged attacks that fill the same sort of role.

[falsion]

I think Gish would work better as a support character. It's going to be really hard to make him true to his original self without drastically altering practically everything about the character due to the differences between this game and Gish.

As a support character though, it'd be easier to make him into what the character is supposed to be, a living pile of goo that sploshes around and he could be used to trap players, making them move slower or maybe even be used to hang on to walls or trap people against them.

[Soulliard]

I think he's deserving of fully playable status. Few indie game heroes are more iconic or popular.

Sure, we need to be creative with the move list, but that worked for Nikujin and Trilby, so I don't see why it wouldn't work here.

[Winterous]

Aah yes yes, that's all fairly reasonable.
For the flatten thing, couldn't you just make him invincible?
Because that'll bypass the whole issue of hitbox, and it's only going to last like a half-second anyway.
I'm just not sure if any other characters have any powerful moves that make dodging worthwhile.

The reason I didn't like the idea of a bite is because he never actually does it in-game, but I guess it's not much of an issue, and it would be a nice animation.

And about the grappling, were you playing the same Gish as me?
Throwing enemies around using sticky form (and blocks as well) was one of the most fun and challenging things in the whole game!
I just LOVED breaking the neck of one of those walking guys by sticking to his head and using my mass to bend him to death, then flinging the poor guy's head at someone else and breaking THEIR neck with the impact! I laughed my ass off every time I managed it (it was quite tricky to do)

Yeah, I guess a spike would work, it could either be a spike of tar, like he thrusts part of his body at the enemy, or a cleverly concealed metal spike, ejected from inside him.


Also about news on Gish 2.
In one post not too long ago, on their blog, there was a single line.
"Gish 2 won't be out until next year, deal with it."

[Soulliard]

For the flatten thing, couldn't you just make him invincible?

Yup, that's basically what I suggested, but I probably wasn't clear enough. I've been thinking about it, and I will add that attack to the move list. It's a good idea.

I'm just not sure if any other characters have any powerful moves that make dodging worthwhile.

I see someone hasn't played Trilby much. 

There are lots of predictable attacks that are worth dodging. Of course, this will be more obvious once more animations are in place.

The reason I didn't like the idea of a bite is because he never actually does it in-game, but I guess it's not much of an issue, and it would be a nice animation.

Yeah, but it's not much of a stretch, and material for Gish's moves are scarce. I mean, Trilby never hits people with his umbrella, Nikujin never throws shurikens, and Lyle never grabs enemies, but no one seems to have a problem with that.

And about the grappling, were you playing the same Gish as me?
Throwing enemies around using sticky form (and blocks as well) was one of the most fun and challenging things in the whole game!

To be honest I haven't gotten very far in it yet.

The main problem is readability, though. I don't think players would be able to tell what was supposed to be going on.

Yeah, I guess a spike would work,

I was thinking it would be more like this...

Also about news on Gish 2.

That's good if it's true.

[The-Imp]

Gish, draft one, without reference, about 20 minutes. Excuse the greyness, black wouldn't work with the outline.

[Winterous]

Gish, draft one, without reference, about 20 minutes. Excuse the greyness, black wouldn't work with the outline.

Ooh that looks pretty good!
A nice fluid blob there.

Anyway, the darker colour for the highlights (maybe a little tiny bit brighter) and a darker one for normal.
He's SUPPOSED to be black, but since he's underground all the time in the game, I'm sure it could be excused if we made him a little lighter to fit with the art style.
Not sure about the eyes, but it's damn good for a quick one :D

[Soulliard]

It's way too big. It looks like he could fit another character inside of him.

[JLJac]

Instead of throwing a projectile made of his own body he could throw a brick(could give the projectile a random graphic out of 3 iconic physics objects in the game)that he pulls out of the hammerspace behind his sprite and then hurls forward using his sticky form. That way we have implemented the sticky form, plus he doesn't need to spit out pieces of himself which would look kinda odd without him shrinking or losing HP or anything.

[Winterous]

It's way too big. It looks like he could fit another character inside of him.

I don't know how big the other characters, but he's not supposed to be small.
He's pretty big, about waist-height when sitting still I think.

[William Broom]

I think his size looks just fine...

[Winterous]

Nah, maybe a touch smaller, just a touch smaller though, not too much or he'll become tiny.

[Soulliard]

He should be Lyle-sized.