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[Alec]

Hmm... part of what freaks me out about indiegamer is the false positive thing.

Maybe just in the part of it that i experienced, but it seemed like if someone gave you their opinion, they just might be saying nice things so as not to offend you.

Whereas here people will beat you to a bloody pulp, rape the pulp, then poop on it if there's one pixel out of alignment.

So yeah, i guess around here there are a lot of terrible, scary, negative people. But at least i know that they honestly hate things with a passion... its not just an act.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

That's a good point too, but to paraphrase Derek, every moment spent thinking about why some indie game or developer sucks is a moment you can't use to make your own better.

But I don't believe the people here are negative. Most of the threads and comments I've read here are very positive. Even in the feedback subforum, where you'd expect it, I haven't seen the bloody pulp thing going on.

[Terry]

Thanks Derek, that was a fantastic read! I'm quitting my job quite soon to try and make a shareware game, so this is basically the frame of mind I'm in at the moment. Though every so often I worry that I'm making a huge mistake.

Then I read something like this, and it cheers me right up. In fact, I feel downright optimistic! So again, thanks Derek! 

[edit: wh00t! 100th post!]

[Alec]

Sarcasm? Anyone?

sigh

[Terry]

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

You forgot the 'move to Malaysia to lower living costs' part.

[Derek]

I didn't mean to treat anyone like a kid. I can be pretty bad at communication sometimes -- but my outlook is that you can't make a community of people value heart over money by just saying they should. I'm also not all that sure that the ones that don't even matter. Do they get in your way? They give indie games a bad image, yes, but why not think of them as things on the side of the road that you'll zoom by, not as walls in your way. People have their motivations, and they're difficult to change.

I appreciate your reply, Rinku.

Your outlook is that you can't make a community of people value heart just by saying it, but that's not a very good reason not to try.  Really, why not?  Forums are built on ideas and people.  With the right ideas, you get the right people, you get the right ideas, etc.

Do "they" get in my way?  No, they don't.  But they operate in ways that are hurtful to themselves and it does affect us.  I hate to think that someone new to indie games or wanting to get into them would walk in and think that that was how you have to do things.  You can't change some of those guys... they'll believe that cold is hot for the rest of their lives if it suits them.  And these people are giving out advice based on what?  It's no wonder the Indiegamer forums are such a mess.  You have 7000 people stirring a pot, and only a fraction of them have ever cooked before!

And I never said that art and business couldn't go together.  My point was that smart business usually begins with being very straightforward - in this case, making sure you have a good product to sell before you start selling it.  I'm not sure how you could argue against that, but I'd love to hear it if you have an argument.

Perhaps many indie games are unenjoyable/unoriginal/clones not because people don't love them enough, but because they aren't experienced enough, or not imaginative enough, or lack self-confidence, some other reason(s)?

Yes, it's possible.  And when you lack experience and self-confidence, you turn to those who appear to have it (or at least are willing to give you advice).  In that case, I want them to turn to the people here instead of the people who make unenjoyable clones.  And it's like I said, when you make something personal to you, your experience and confidence grows.  You learn more about yourself and about the craft.  When you make cheap knock-offs, the opposite happens.

[Alex May]

You forgot the 'move to Malaysia to lower living costs' part.

roti canai and kopi ais every morning would suit me down to the ground, hells yeah. rambutan and a coconut for lunch. beef rendang or hawker satay for dinner. seems right

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

That's a interesting point about where people new to this will go to learn from, that was thinking longer-term than I was actually.

I don't think you shouldn't try, just that, when you try, it's better not to antagonize people by assuming they don't care about games; you usually don't convince someone to see things in a different way that way. The best way to change someone's mind is to befriend them, to lead them by the hand into the world of heart...

Now, it's obvious that some of them really *don't* care about games, but unless someone has stated that the decisions they made when making their game were chosen based on what the market would like, the speculation might cut them off from ever seeing your point of view.



A side story is (you probably know this, but some might not) that the indiegamer.com forums are descended from the dexterity.com forums of old Steve Pavlina, so a lot of his very strong personality has its imprint there. He's now become a professional blogger, and although he has some good posts I think a lot of his posts are motivated by "more traffic at any cost" and "building a passive income" and so on. I do like some of his articles, but I think he's the paragon of someone who cared more about the business than about games, and a lot of the culture there is probably the result of his ideas.

I do think it'd be a good idea to develop (well, it's developed, so, expand upon) the "TIGSource Way" in the same way that Pavlina developed his way, because he was very convincing and a great writer, so the answering perspective to him would have to be even more convincing.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

roti canai and kopi ais every morning would suit me down to the ground, hells yeah. rambutan and a coconut for lunch. beef rendang or hawker satay for dinner. seems right

Gah, I don't recognize a single one of those words, except coconut.

[Alex May]

you need a holiday in malaysia!! :D

[fucker]

roti canai and kopi ais every morning would suit me down to the ground, hells yeah. rambutan and a coconut for lunch. beef rendang or hawker satay for dinner. seems right

Gah, I don't recognize a single one of those words, except coconut.

just dough and coffee with some tropical fruits. also curry and skewered meat.

[sega]

AGH!!  I was already starving.  Now I'm hungrier than ever.  It's a good thing there aren't any woodland creatures running around in my office.  This pizza delivery guy can't arrive fast enough.

Back on topic, I think the indiegamer forums are fine, even great as they are.  On the other hand, I would never, ever want TIGForums to become what indiegamer is.  I really like this community, and the general philosophy of it.  I will go to indiegamer when I need to find a good credit card payment company, or web hosting company built around handling that kind of traffic and up time.  But for the love of games, and interactive art, music, digital toys, etc... I will most definitely come here first.

[Derek]

I don't think you shouldn't try, just that, when you try, it's better not to antagonize people by assuming they don't care about games; you usually don't convince someone to see things in a different way that way. The best way to change someone's mind is to befriend them, to lead them by the hand into the world of heart...

haha

Well, I didn't point anyone out specifically, and obviously there are some great people at Indiegamer and I can't/wouldn't call out the entire forum.  So no one should feel antagonized unless they really are shills, right?  I want to befriend everyone who's willing.

But I feel strongly against people choosing games based on the market.  And in this case I'm thinking of the developer and not the community.  My point is that if you follow the market, you will be behind when the market moves on.  And the market is always moving and always changing.  With game development taking at least half a year for a commercial game (if not more), it's a dangerous game to chase such a capricious animal as "the market."

Good games never go out of style, and people always appreciate something made from the heart.  There are basic facets of human nature that never change, and those should be your guidelines for game development.  It's much safer for you as a developer in every possible way.  Win win, and I have yet to hear a compelling argument against this.

A side story is (you probably know this, but some might not) that the indiegamer.com forums are descended from the dexterity.com forums of old Steve Pavlina, so a lot of his very strong personality has its imprint there. He's now become a professional blogger, and although he has some good posts I think a lot of his posts are motivated by "more traffic at any cost" and "building a passive income" and so on. I do like some of his articles, but I think he's the paragon of someone who cared more about the business than about games, and a lot of the culture there is probably the result of his ideas.

I do think it'd be a good idea to develop (well, it's developed, so, expand upon) the "TIGSource Way" in the same way that Pavlina developed his way, because he was very convincing and a great writer, so the answering perspective to him would have to be even more convincing.

That's very interesting!  I actually didn't know that.

Long term, I believe that if you treat customers with respect and are completely straightforward with how you deal with people, then you will get the same back.  I care about money, too.  I just feel like you can make money and be creatively satisfied.  And I don't understand why that route seems frightening to some people.

@haowan: My dad was raised in malaysia and that's where my uncle's from.  Now I want some malaysian food.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Well, one argument against it is that the indie developers and companies that make the most money are the ones that produce the most unoriginal games. Zuma was a clone. It's hard to convince someone not to clone games if they have examples like that.

Plus, there are borderline cases, the decisions you have to make about what to put in the game shouldn't depend on what would sell, but there are some things which would seriously harm sales if included which should be considered.

Here are two examples from my experience.

In Immortal Defense, the artist of the game originally symbolized the Hate Point by the Christian cross. I was like "you are crazy?" but he was adamant and argued that it'd be the perfect symbol for hate. I didn't like the idea, and eventually removed it after about a week of decision-making, and (at least I like to believe) I didn't remove it for marketing reasons -- I just thought it was a stupid symbol for hate -- but that kind of decision is iffy. We eventually replaced the cross with a caduceus (the symbol for medicine) -- that way we would only offend doctors and worshipers of Hermes. But, if something like that doesn't really damage the game to remove, but would hurt sales if it's there... should it be removed?

Here's my second example, one where I decided the opposite. The writer for my games and I are planning the story for the next game. I don't want to reveal much about this game yet, but the main two characters are lesbians and there's some type of implied seduction scene. If that's what the game is known for, that might harm sales as well (or it might help it, who even knows?). But because he feels it's important to the story and convinced me of it, we'll probably have it in, even though it'd probably be seen as a bad marketing decision.

So what I mean is, the decisions are often complex like that, it's not a simple matter of "do I make a match-3 game or do I make the game of my dreams?", it's decisions about detailed elements of the games which could potentially affect sales that are much harder to make. I agree that it's best to ignore the market even in those cases, but it's also simply a matter of not wanting to disappoint or offend people. If I had used the cross as the symbol for hate for example, not only would I have had to deal with lots of offended email, but more importantly, it might have ruined the experience of the game for many people.

[Derek]

PopCap did make a lot of money, they're also catching a lot of shit for it and they're starting to understand how it feels to be on the other side.  Also, my point wasn't really that it's not possible to make money that way, but that ultimately it's a more risky proposition, especially if you're going to go ahead and clone a game that's already successful and well-known.  Part of what is so sinister about PopCap is that Puzzloop was a game no one had heard about outside of Japan and they must have known that before they released Zuma.  And now they're releasing some more original games, you'll notice.  You can't clone forever... it will catch up to you.

Do clones make the _most_ money?  Well, maybe.  Plenty of original developers make a living.  Are you trying to make the most, or are you trying to make a living doing something creative?

Regarding your borderline cases... I never said "don't pay attention to your players."  I said, make a great game first.  Start with an idea and concept you personally care about.  The details can and should be moved around and they should not disturb that overall vision.  Granted, your overall vision might not suit everyone's tastes, but at least you're not competing against other people with the same dull idea right out the gate.

Changing your "Hate Point" from a Christian cross was a smart move and a good one, and I don't think it compromised your artistic vision in any way.  Where you making an anti-Christian game and was that your intent from the outset?  No.  Your artist wanted to make a point that had nothing to do with the actual game and would have offended a lot of people for no good reason.

A personal game is not a game where you DON'T think.  It's a game where you DO think.  A lot.  About every aspect, including the people who will eventually play.  But it starts from a place that is pure and has love for gaming.

In the end, yes, game development is complex, and I never said otherwise.  Here's what I am saying:

• Before you can sell a game, you have to have a game.  And a good game is inherently easier to make money from.  So concentrate on the game first.
• By cloning someone else's game you automatically created tough competition for yourself.
• Creating a personal work means that, even if you fail financially, you will see growth as an artist and people will respect you (and you will respect yourself).
• You should get in the habit of thinking about why things are done a certain way before you apply it to your own unique situation.
• Be straightforward in the way that you treat your customers and do business, and they will treat you similarly and you will never have any regrets.

Does any of that sound contrary to the points you're making or what you believe in?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

No disagreements this time actually, great response.

[Alex May]

You know where the best place to relocate to in order to start an indie would be, don't you?

INDIA

 :D

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

No way, you have to bribe the police just to *report a crime* over there.

[Alex May]

Yeah, but... INDIA. Get it? "I'm INDIA than you!"