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[eva]

If zelda is a metroidvania ...
Then there is no point making a difference between halo 3, gears of war and megaman 2, they are all shooter! 

Traditionally, perspective matter in games genre so far.

+ platformer imply an interplay with gravity that top down game don't have, it doesn't play the same.

the difference between halo 3, gears of war, and megaman 2 is more than just perspective but hey it's not like an idiot like you would know

the only genres that are limited to a perspective are genres that state it (first person shooter, sidescrollers) etc.

there are top down perspective games with platforming


--

the only reason to associate metroidvania with 2d sidescrollers is most of them happen to be sidescrollers. a lot of rpgs are top-down but its not a requirement for an rpg. also 3d metroid games exist and there is really no point in making another genre called "3d metroidvanias"

[J-Snake]

If zelda is a metroidvania ...
Then there is no point making a difference between halo 3, gears of war and megaman 2, they are all shooter! 

There is a point in making a difference between Metroid-Games.

[gimymblert]

If zelda is a metroidvania ...
Then there is no point making a difference between halo 3, gears of war and megaman 2, they are all shooter!  

Traditionally, perspective matter in games genre so far.

+ platformer imply an interplay with gravity that top down game don't have, it doesn't play the same.

the difference between halo 3, gears of war, and megaman 2 is more than just perspective but hey it's not like an idiot like you would know

the only genres that are limited to a perspective are genres that state it (first person shooter, sidescrollers) etc.

there are top down perspective games with platforming


--

the only reason to associate metroidvania with 2d sidescrollers is most of them happen to be sidescrollers. a lot of rpgs are top-down but its not a requirement for an rpg. also 3d metroid games exist and there is really no point in making another genre called "3d metroidvanias"

Hey mascot! That's totally my point if you miss it.

Except that metroidvanis is a term to differentiate "find the exit" side scroller to "network layout" sidescroller. The difference with top down game is that gravity is still a big part of the experience, even if top down have some platforming element (heck even fps can have platforming element) this is not generally the core interaction with the game. It's important because positioning totally affect the gameplay.

If you don't like term just propose a new one? something that is not a reference to king of the genre.

Like fps have move from doom/quake like, it maybe time to move metroidvania to something else (exploration platformer?)?


I guess metroidvania will stick by pure convenience of the term

[MaloEspada]

i dont think you read my post very well, timmy
i'll make it clear it's not any "zelda",

it's
ZELDA 1

[s0]

I don't see how Zelda 1 would be more of a "Metroidvania" than other Zeldas if it was (which it isn't).

[MaloEspada]

i'll just assume you dont know which one is zelda 1, or have never played it

[s0]

i'll just assume you dont know which one is zelda 1, or have never played it

lol wat

No need to be rude, and yes I have played Zelda 1. Just asking a question.

[MaloEspada]

i'll break it down for you, so even a worm can understand (jk):

    * 2D Platformer.

not necessary, this is why:

    * Non-linear level structure with backtracking,

whether you want to believe it or not, zelda 1's map is structured like this:

(image source: arne)

linear levels with branching paths and the like don't count.

the dungeons in zelda 1 suffer from this, but most of the game is non-linear anyway

    * Levels are designed as a "world" rather than as a number of stages played in a strict order.

you can *beat* the dungeons in any order, if you have the necessary items. there is no set order, and you can even sequence break and get the white sword first, for example.
the only mandatory order is beating ganon's dungeon last.

    * World may be split up into several large areas, possibly even connected by a central "hub" (a la Metroid Fusion).

i think if you have played zeldas, you know the world is composed by large areas

* Levels are also split up into individual "rooms" or "screens".

this is obvious if you have played the game, too. though it's not necessary as i pointed out in the previous page

* Permanent upgrades or items for the player character can be found.

blue / red ring, boomerang, etc.

    * Some upgrades/items unlock new paths.

the boat/ladder, the cane to burn trees

--
EDIT:

in the end, what separates zelda 1 from the rest of the zeldas is point 2: the way the player can explore the world. in zelda 1 you can access almost every point of the map from the very start, without any need of new items. you can't do these in other zelda games, you always need "the flippers", "the fire tunic", etc.

also, another point to take note is that zelda 1 has no "errand quest". no one is asking you to RETRIEVE THE GOLDEN PLUME, or whatever. these kinds of quests (present in every zelda other than z1) make the game linear, and take away the freedom of the player.

another point i would like to add to the "checklist" is this, quoted from arne:

"Alternative routes - No absolute bottlenecks. Skill should be rewarded and allow the player to push ahead."

i.e., allow the player to venture more dangerous areas at any time (zelda 1 did this!)

[s0]

I think I should have made myself clearer about nonlinearity:

"Non-linear level structure" doesn't necessarily mean the game itself is nonlinear (i.e. you can do things in a number of different orders), that doesn't factor into it at all. It means that the levels aren't straight paths (or branching paths) that lead forward to a goal. You have to retread some of the areas you were in previously to advance in a Metroidvania, aka backtracking.

Also note that I never talked about "exploration" anywhere cuz I don't think that's needed. Super Metroid is linear and isn't an "exploration" game, and so is Link to the Past for that matter.

About the platformer thing: As I said it depends on whether you see "Metroidvania" as a platformer subgenre or a "prefix" that can be attached to any type of core gameplay. I can understand the second perspective, but I still think the first is more accurate. It's one of the reasons why Dwarf Fortress isn't a roguelike as well.

[MaloEspada]

i wont go into the "metroidvanias should be 2d platformers" point, because i think its a quality that can apply to more than 1 genre of videogames.

i see your point in nonlinearity, but i think there is a problem in it.
even if there is a lot of backtracking, you are still walking through the same rooms, following a linear path. it's not like you can get to Tourian right from the start in any Metroid game, you need to go through a series of items first.
this is not true about zelda 1 (which i consider a true metroidvania), where you can get to the door of ganon's lair right from the start.

if exploration is not needed, you are telling me the game layout is a linear path. i see exploration as something like "there are 3 paths to take, choose one".

[gimymblert]

The debate: Metroidvania define by sidescrolling or exploration?

I think it is "sidescrolling with exploration + ability gating"
Rdein think it's pure exploration

[MaloEspada]

i dont recall ever saying it's "pure exploration", even so because every metroid, castlevania and zelda games have items for you to get, that open new paths.

to me it's exploration without restricting the player too much (like Metroid Fusion did), with eventually gaining a few items to open new paths (but not relying too much on this).

that's why OoT and Cave Story can't be called metroidvanias. they are linear games, with errand quests, where you have few liberties. metroid 1 and super metroid did it nicely, i think. (so did knytt stories and zelda 1)

[gimymblert]

So for you a major part is "stumbling on" things?

[moi]

Metroidvania ultra is once a month for samus aran

[MaloEspada]

would you rather prefer someone telling you "grab the mushroom to increase your power", or finding it on your own, when you hit a block from below and engage such mushroom?

i think a lot of the appeal would be lost if someone was telling you that YOU NEED TO GET THE FIVE DIAMONDS TO SAVE THE WORLD. some games just tell you that the world needs to be saved, and it is your duty as the hero to find out how to save it. that's what samus aran did in metroid 1, for the nes.

in la mulana, the player travels to the ancient ruins, searching for the sacred treasure, but no one tells him HOW to get to the treasure. he finds all the powerups on his own, all the hidden passageways and learns the mythology and the game world logic on his own.

now in metroid fusion, you have a guy telling you where to go. in metroid zero mission, the statues point out where your next power up is. in zelda alttp, the world map displays where each dungeon is, and obviously the places you must go to clear the game.

i think all these "hints" take away a bit of the fun from the game. exploration is also finding things on your own, by "stumbling on them".

(i hope i got what you meant right, haha)

[s0]

Yeah, but we're not talking about open world or exploration games here, we're talking about Metroidvanias. The items to unlock new paths are one of the defining features of Metroidvanias as a genre. Morrowind, Frontier and World of Warcraft are not "Metroidvanias".

Regarding linearity: You're guided along a path by an invisble hand in Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night (and a not-so-invisble one in Fusion), but the level layout is still somewhat less linear than something like Super Mario Bros or Castlevania: Rondo of Blood (which has a couple branching paths). You're not forced to visit the rooms in each area in a particular, strictly defined order in those games.

[MaloEspada]

The items to unlock new paths are one of the defining features of Metroidvanias as a genre

this is present in "open world/exploration" games too, man. every game i cited so far as a metroidvania has these "items that open new doors".

would you come to an agreement if we just settled that some games are "more metroidvania-y" than others?

[Rumrusher]

If I only played the recent games of both franchises and you tell me that term, I might get the idea of a ninja Gaiden xbox game combined with god of warRygar from the ps2.
When I think about it Castlevania before Sotn had the same boss health next to the players Hud the original nes Ninja Gaiden did, and Nes-rygar had gave you restrictive exploration and a rpg system where more creatures you kill the more powerful your blade's of AresDiskarmor.
edit: wait rygar also had a top down as well side-scrolling segments to it.

[mirosurabu]

A game with branching path, almost maze-like, upgrades allowing you to access previously inaccessible areas, backtracking and sudden bosses. When I see such game I call it metroidvania unless Wikipedia tells me otherwise.

[eva]

Hey mascot! That's totally my point if you miss it.

nope

this is what you said: "If zelda is a metroidvania ...
Then there is no point making a difference between halo 3, gears of war and megaman 2, they are all shooter!  "

the only difference between zelda1 and this previously defined "metroidvania" is perspective (hint: it is)
assuming this thing above, and don't forget it, your example of halo 3 and gears of war and megaman 2 - the difference in genre is simply perspective (hint: it's not)

"Except that metroidvanis is a term to differentiate "find the exit" side scroller to "network layout" sidescroller."

maybe it was only used to differentiate sidescrollers because there were only sidescrolling metroidvanias. i have never heard someone say metroidvanias require gravity as a part of the genre. but there are 3d ones including the 3d metroid series and batman arkham asylum (ok its not much of a metroidvania but it plays like one) and zelda 1 does fit in to the metroidvania genre, though a zelda-like is a different thing

"If you don't like term just propose a new one? something that is not a reference to king of the genre.

Like fps have move from doom/quake like, it maybe time to move metroidvania to something else (exploration platformer?)?
"

i never said i don't like the term, i said it doesnt need to be restricted to sidescrollers (because, again, its not)