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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #120 on: May 18, 2009, 06:22:14 AM »

I think the greatest positive example of this is Cave Story: after Cave Story, there was a sudden explosion of interest in playing and making indie games. Most of the people in this community only started playing and making them after Cave Story was made. It was "the indie game" that showed that indie games can be fun and that one person can make good ones. And while I don't think Stalin vs. Martians can be the anti-Cave Story, the game that gets the mainstream uninterested in indie games again, I do think it's true that paradigmatic examples can affect niches quite strongly (either positively or negatively).
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Mipe
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« Reply #121 on: May 18, 2009, 06:29:01 AM »

It is mostly the mainstream junk that makes people want to make something themselves... to show how quality is done! (In their opinion.)
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #122 on: May 18, 2009, 06:31:09 AM »

that's not really true in my experience. many, many people have ideas about how games should be made. tell anyone that you're a game designer and watch how often they say they have a "great idea for a game". but that's not really the issue. the issue is that most of them did not go off and make those ideas until they learned that it was possible to do it, and had an example of how it was possible, even in the modern age, to make good games alone.
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Oddbob
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« Reply #123 on: May 18, 2009, 09:11:36 AM »

You're shifting goalposts. You're taking statements that are in response to something in particular and removing them from their responsive context as if they're statements in themselves as opposed to answering them in the context they're placed in, while adding strawman "implied motives" to some of them to argue against and make appeals against.

And I'm a marketing/design major, and there is quite a bit of observed marketing theory that goes into media coverage of trends, and how public perception of trends can shift just due to what is presented as a showcase of the trend. It's not 'paranoid rambling'; it's provable marketing theory
.

It's called an argument. When people don't offer up any proof or hard reasoning for their motives, the only thing left to do is speculate on their motives. I'm trying to prod to find out what you actually truly believe and to see if there's any foundation in reality for it. So far, I'm drawing a blank on that, man. Your continual avoidance of actually answering with anything other than exhausting amounts of hot air leads me to the conclusion that there's nothing grounded in reality at all. Hence assuming that it is paranoid ramblings.

For your theory to work you'd first have to prove that Stalin Vs Martians is "showcasing Indie titles" which I'd be quite comfortable in arguing it's doing no such thing. After all, Mezmer aren't exactly banging the independent drum here, generally people are observing it as a couple of studio's getting together and doing something daft or at least those who care remotely enough to dig that deep which is (wild floundering guess for exaggeration purposes) 6 people and a goat. So unless there's actually some foundation for your reasoning beyond "I think" it *is* paranoid rambling.

So far, you've not been able to back up a single one of your statements - just using wild brush strokes and blah ("it's obvious to everyone else" being prime offending statement #1), so yeah, I'm not convinced you've got a very stable case for the prosecution y'know.

I've been playing games for over 25 years now, I've been writing about them for 10. I've seen all sorts of games come and go in every niche and genre you can imagine. I've yet to see anything you describe occur. Evidently journalists far more professional than I are struggling to see any foundation in it too (go to the RPS folks comments on Tim's blog). Sure anecdotal != data, but if it was that blatantly obvious and provable, you'd have dug out examples where it has happened in the past surely? You wouldn't be floundering shouting around your credentials as a marketing major, you'd be able to say "look, here's x, it caused y to occur in 19xx" or whatever. Can you do that? You might not want to but it'd make me feel a whole lot better y'know, it'd say "hi, I'm more than hot air" and give your argument some foundation, which right now it really needs instead of continually dodging replies. "It could happen", sure, but then I could also burst into flames whilst taking a piss. It's not bloody likely.

In short, show me one game in the history of games that has single handedly been responsible for causing wavering interest in a niche or genre.

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You're also making the mistake of using a wide genre as a comparison to a theme (platformers to niche political humor games).

Ok, let me narrow it down for you. Brian Bloodaxe was an awful Pythonesque take on the platform genre. It was to platformers what SvM is to RTS. Funnily enough, it didn't destroy Pythonesque platformers by its very existence. It didn't cause a massive wane in the interest of the genre. It didn't stop journalists covering equally silly games that were better (or worse) than it. The public didn't suddenly find themselves with funny platform game fatigue even after a glut of the buggers. It didn't cause a hole in the centre of the Earth that consumed everything around it or whatever extreme you'd like to reach to.

Historically, I can see no evidence for your theory. I'm asking you to prove me wrong now. Really, I won't be offended if you do - quite the opposite, I'll consider it enlightening.

Can you do that?

Better?
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #124 on: May 18, 2009, 09:29:36 AM »

"In short, show me one game in the history of games that has single handedly been responsible for causing wavering interest in a niche or genre."

The lowered interest in adventure games as a mainstream genre began around the time Myst was released, give or take a few years. Myst kind of came to represent everything outsiders hated about the genre: obscure puzzles and slow gameplay in particular. I don't think the lack of interest was even mostly due to Myst, but I think it contributed; it certainly at least caused many people to equate the problems of Myst with the problems of adventure games. I don't know how accurate this theory is, but I've heard it said before that Myst is responsible for the wavering interest in adventure games. And yes, it was the best-selling adventure game so that's kind of a weird theory to say that the best-selling example of something ruined the genre, but a lot of people bought it for the graphics or just because it was hyped so much and other reasons besides its quality.
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Oddbob
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« Reply #125 on: May 18, 2009, 11:15:02 AM »

I think Myst is one of those games that its easy to scapegoat and if anything, bore the brunt of a cultural shift as opposed to being in any way responsible for the death of a genre.

Given that Myst is bookended by sterling SCUMM games and is in itself an obtuse but populist entry into an already disappearing genre, I'd say nah, it's not remotely the case.

Adventure gaming disappearing from the mainstream is more down to evolution and diversification than being able to find one specific game to point the finger at or j'accuse of being the straw that broke the camels back.

The moment we could display more than just text saw the pure adventure have its cards marked. From that moment on, it was a steady drift. Fast forward 10 years from 1983 to 1993 when Myst is released and you're at a junction point in gaming history. The demise of the 16bit machines and the imminent rise of 32 bit. Myst cements PC gaming as serious business, but PC's are expensive - hugely so. 12 months down the line and there's 32 bit consoles being sold as lifestyle accessories, club culture embraces the Playstation, everything changes *again*. It's gaming evolution at its finest. The focus was changing long before Myst came out and it changed again just over 12 months after Myst came out.

That's how it all rolls.
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« Reply #126 on: May 18, 2009, 11:44:07 AM »

I haven't been in college for quite some time now, so I can only paraphrase the idea as opposed to providing direct reference. Essentially, there were several test cases and real life examples in which someone brought a new twist on a new product to market and publicized it. Say Ben and Jerry's created a hamburger flavored ice cream that they marketed heavily. People as a whole tasted it and hated it. Now say you're a regional ice cream company that made hot dog flavored ice cream and, in taste tests, people love it. The problem is since Ben and Jerry's already popularized the failed fast food ice cream, and ruined mass public opinion of the idea, it makes your ice cream much harder to sell, and people that partnered with Ben and Jerry's would be wary to partner with you and your similar idea.

This would apply similarly to games because it's been shown that people almost always categorize games in comparison to another game in their mind. While I don't think that SvM would affect ALL indie games negatively, it would affect that subset of wacky political themed indie games. And as someone that is

, I personally don't like the idea of having to fight through possible bridges being burned.

For instance, mainstream review sites rarely cover smaller independent games. If a reviewer gives one of these games a chance because of the "wacky title" it could burn him on even trying out a similar game afterwards. That's no good. And burned customers would be less excited about furture similar products in general.

I don't knock them for marketing their game or getting it pushed; I fault them for not putting more time into the actual design of the game and attempting to make it less buggy. My game might not be fun or balanced properly, that's the player's opinion, but as a developer, it's my job to try and at least ATTEMPT to make a product worth selling for some reason. Heck, I didn't even push Ad Pets at all because it was strictly niche and knew that most of the public wouldn't "get" 1984 gameplay.

So my motives are simply a "shame on them" as opposed to wanting them removed or anything. Indie developers have a hard enough time as it is; it kind of sucks when things that finally get some attention are half-arsed.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #127 on: May 18, 2009, 11:59:16 AM »

"The moment we could display more than just text saw the pure adventure have its cards marked."

I don't doubt this, but why do you think this is? It's a bit unexpected that expanding the capabilities of something would restrict what people like on it. Is it just like, say, color TV making black and white TV obsolete? That adventure games were built around the restrictions of early computers, and that with those restrictions gone there was no desire for them except among the nostalgic? I never really thought of it that way before, but that's a workable theory.
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Oddbob
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« Reply #128 on: May 18, 2009, 12:13:05 PM »

I haven't been in college for quite some time now, so I can only paraphrase the idea as opposed to providing direct reference. Essentially, there were several test cases and real life examples in which someone brought a new twist on a new product to market and publicized it. Say Ben and Jerry's created a hamburger flavored ice cream that they marketed heavily. People as a whole tasted it and hated it. Now say you're a regional ice cream company that made hot dog flavored ice cream and, in taste tests, people love it. The problem is since Ben and Jerry's already popularized the failed fast food ice cream, and ruined mass public opinion of the idea, it makes your ice cream much harder to sell, and people that partnered with Ben and Jerry's would be wary to partner with you and your similar idea.

Right, so you have no examples to back up the theory with regards to this ever occurring in games. Fair enough.

Quote
This would apply similarly to games because it's been shown that people almost always categorize games in comparison to another game in their mind. While I don't think that SvM would affect ALL indie games negatively, it would affect that subset of wacky political themed indie games. And as someone that is

, I personally don't like the idea of having to fight through possible bridges being burned.

Stalin Vs Martians has about as much to do with wacky political commentary as my cock does. You're conflating two entirely separate things to make a potential disaster scenario.

Quote
For instance, mainstream review sites rarely cover smaller independent games. If a reviewer gives one of these games a chance because of the "wacky title" it could burn him on even trying out a similar game afterwards. That's no good. And burned customers would be less excited about furture similar products in general.

You're showing a woeful misunderstanding of how people, the public and journalists actually work. Look, it's this simple - if you tickle a journalists fancy with your game, if you excite, interest or intrigue them, they'll cover your game. Seriously, it's that simple. It doesn't matter if they played a shit one the week before, the day before or an hour before. It doesn't matter if you play "My Massive Penis" which is a crap game about a cock in a DDR form and then play "Woah, Look At The Size Of My Cock" which is the same game but brilliant - the brilliant one will win out despite its wacky title. It'll get coverage because it interests them. I know, hard to fathom that people might actually behave like people not some theoretical model that exists in your head isn't it?

Please, have a read of Gillen's brilliant piece on marketing Indie games if you haven't already. It may be a good few years old but every word of it still rings true.

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I don't knock them for marketing their game or getting it pushed; I fault them for not putting more time into the actual design of the game and attempting to make it less buggy. My game might not be fun or balanced properly, that's the player's opinion, but as a developer, it's my job to try and at least ATTEMPT to make a product worth selling for some reason. Heck, I didn't even push Ad Pets at all because it was strictly niche and knew that most of the public wouldn't "get" 1984 gameplay.

Oh god, the public get 1984 gameplay just fine - I've been running RR for the best part of 5 years at the helm, and we're as 1984 gameplay as you bloody get considering we cater specifically to folks who like that sort of thing and yet, we still get folks from outside that little niche who love that stuff, lots of them in fact. Stop looking to point the finger at outside forces for the love of all things computational. If it's a specific niche product then it'll only ever appeal to a specific niche, that's cool - but that's your decision, your choice. Not "the public don't get it".

And here's one more revelation for the road. Different folks have different motivations when producing work. I like that. You take it as your own responsibility to produce a fully working, "less buggy" product. Someone else might not. Someone else might just do it for shits and giggles. They're both valid approaches. You don't have to like it, but they are.

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So my motives are simply a "shame on them" as opposed to wanting them removed or anything. Indie developers have a hard enough time as it is; it kind of sucks when things that finally get some attention are half-arsed.

Hahaha, brilliant. We're at a point in time when it's easier than ever to make a noise a an Indie. Probably the easiest its ever been to get coverage and to get the word out and "we have a hard time of it". Do excuse me if I attempt to stop pissing my pants for a second at how absurd a notion that is.

You make your own bed in this life, man. Go and make yours. Angry Barry looks ace, you can do it, I'm sure.

I'd highly recommend dropping the persecution complex though, it does you a great disservice.
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Oddbob
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« Reply #129 on: May 18, 2009, 12:51:21 PM »

"The moment we could display more than just text saw the pure adventure have its cards marked."

I don't doubt this, but why do you think this is? It's a bit unexpected that expanding the capabilities of something would restrict what people like on it. Is it just like, say, color TV making black and white TV obsolete? That adventure games were built around the restrictions of early computers, and that with those restrictions gone there was no desire for them except among the nostalgic? I never really thought of it that way before, but that's a workable theory.

I'm pretty sure there's an element of obsolescence that comes into play somewhere, but it's (in my completely unfounded, totally formulated inside my own head) view that you also have diversification to account for.

Possibly confusing and confused mind dribble commencing:

Sure, as technology moves on some things are deemed as primitive and I don't doubt that the adventure game suffered partially from that. When I first started picking up computer magazines, adventure games and strategy games were reviewed separately from other titles. They were already considered of niche interest to a great degree. In some (many, IMO) ways this did them an injustice from the off and I'm sure were it not for my curious nature I'd have missed out on some great experiences. If, in 1983, the mainstream press were treating these genres as relative outsiders, the shift had already occurred somewhat.

My personal view though is that with the market opening up further to more people then it's natural that certain segments of the market will be forced out of the mainstream as more people are attracted to a different segment of that market, whatever it is that brings them in. See the PS1 embracing club culture and club culture embracing the PS1 - it's a natural fit to see Wipeout making hefty inroads, not so for an adventure game. The more the market shifts towards one demographic, the more niche another becomes. You see the odd breakout title from niche genres that hit that magic sweet spot, but they can't possibly compete against the weight of numbers wanting the new shiny thing.

Every so many years, we see shifts in what's popular as we bring different people into gaming. We also see resistance from a vocal few at each and every quantum shift. I remember some of my friends refusing to progress from the Speccy to 16 bit, and man, don't start me on Amiga fans!

The part where it gets awkward is that there's still a vibrant, if outnumbered, group of lovers of these now niche genres and they'll keep pushing it forward. I'd have adored some of the IF that's coming out today to have been around when I first started gaming but so much of it wouldn't be possible without the years of knowledge, experience and progress we've made over the years both with the available tools (GAC and Quill were prime movers in the 8 bit scene and even they were a bit befuddling to a large proportion of the gaming public) and with games already made.

So we progress, those who love that sort of thing continue to love that sort of thing, those drawn to whatever genre will still make games in that genre and things keep ticking over nicely. Meanwhile, the world changes around them and the gaming market is constantly in some sort of flux as each generation we bring different folks into the fold.

The only real change is in the amount of growth.

We're never very good at killing things off entirely in videogaming, sometimes we lay them to rest for a few years, sometimes we push them into a corner and forget about them for a while, but all the time there's still people working in that genre and still people doing their thing. The one thing we don't do well is stagnate. I like that Gentleman
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #130 on: May 18, 2009, 01:03:15 PM »

i didn't know they were considered niche even in 83, i was only five then so wasn't reading computer magazines yet, that's interesting to know. my impression was that infocom IF games sold very well back then and were almost the dominant genre among pc games, so that may be mistaken.

speaking of adventure games, i've always wanted to like them (and even helped make a few: fedora spade and missing, with orchard-l, and am working off and on on one of my own) but always found the puzzles to get in the way of enjoying them. so i suppose they appeal to a niche of people who don't get frustrated very easily and have a lot of perseverance. the ones i've enjoyed the most tend to be those with relatively easy puzzles (like yahtzee's trilby series) or puzzleless (like photopia).
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