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[Wren]

Hi! I recently talked to Guert over in the feedback forums and he suggested I post here.

I am looking for feedback from experienced c++ developers on a project I'm involved in.

I am working with a few guys who are building a game platform that specifically targets indies.  It is a c++ framework that allows devs to build games modularly, license and share middleware/tools, and then distribute native code cross platform. 

 If you are interested you can send me an e-mail ( clayton at worldki dot com) or go to our website to sign up. (www.worldki.com)

We would also love feedback on our website and the overall concept, so even if you aren't a c++ developer your input is welcome.

Thanks a lot for your help!
~Clayton

[Skofo]

Your website does almost nothing to capture its target audience. This is aimed at indie C++ developers, right? Then why is 99% of the website just fluff and marketing speak?

[bateleur]

My impression so far:

* Very shiny website, looks beautiful.
* Promises things which sounds useful (such as cross platform development).
* Either doesn't contain or doesn't adequately publicise what I really want to know.

Three questions spring immediately to mind:

* What's the commercial model? Who is doing work here? Who is paying/receiving money and for what? What are the licenses?
* What existing technology is being used to achieve the promised portability? What modules are provided by default? What APIs are used?
* What has already been built with this technology? If there are no working games at this early stage, are there any tech demos? Or at least videos of demos?

If the response to any of the above is "sign up" or "get involved" then I'm more likely to walk away than take an interest. This information needs to be public.

[nikki]

sounds 'too good to be true' , so whats the catch ?

where is the real overview ?; alot of cheap words but no real classes, give me something like this : http://libcinder.org/features/  or even better this: http://libcinder.org/docs/ or maybe something like :  http://flashpunk.net/docs/
oh wait i see ... closed beta... well still an overview should be there.

the president and vice president are the only people involved atm  i guess  ? 

and most importantly: what has been built ? show me the demo's !

ps: your digitalman wordpress blog (under community/competitions) seems to have been hijacked.

to be simple about it; "just fluff and marketing speak?"

[Wren]

Hey guys,
Thanks so much for the feedback, this is really helpful.  Trying to convey the value of the platform without sounding "markety" has been a huge challenge throughout the process.  I'm going to sit down with the dev team tomorrow and try to work out a way to talk about the features that makes more sense to programmers.

@nikki -
The catch right now is that no one is using it =)  it gains a lot of its value from the community.  It actually does allow you to distribute cross-platform with a single build, though.

There are actually about 5 developers involved, some committing more time than others.

As to documentation, we are trying to balance how much we give away up front, as our innovation is our competative edge.

We do have a wiki that goes into the architecture and features in more gritty detail.  right now you have to log in, but maybe it would be worth it to open this up at least?

here's what the feature list looks like, is this what you have in mind?

[Wren]

we have opened up the wiki if you want to take a look at give some feedback on whether that type of documentation is useful.  We may not leave it open but we wanted to get your input.

Thanks!

[st33d]

Where's the code!!!?

[Wren]

st33d, if you are a c++ developer and want access to the code PM me with your e-mail and I can send you an invite.  It is a closed beta at the moment, so we don't just put the source on the website.  The wiki has some samples, however.

[Wren]

Alright, so I've decided to try and follow your advice and be clearer and less markety where possible.

I'd like to focus right now on the features page.  http://www.worldki.com/?page_id=31
Which parts of this seem clear to you, and which are total fluff?

Also, the Wiki is now open. The features overview page has a more detailed overview of the platform and links to code samples.  Do any of you find this helpful?
http://www.worldki.com/wiki/index.php/Features_Overview

Thanks a lot for the feedback!  Hopefully with your help I can avoid my chronic marketing voice sydrom. 

[BorisTheBrave]

My Number One website requirement for libraries - online docs. Preferably autogen'd + manual + "Getting started". I almost always read before I even download to try. Many other websites don't seem to get this straight either.

Other non-fluff things that actually make me likely to give something a shot:
 - Active Forum
 - Links to succesful projects using it
 - Open source
 - Youtube tutorials

I know, a pretty tall order, but they are individual suggestions. Obviously none of these things are possible while on a closed beta, 

I'd like to focus right now on the features page.  http://www.worldki.com/?page_id=31
Which parts of this seem clear to you, and which are total fluff?

It's easier to say what actual content there is, which is as follows:

Cross platform to Windows, Max & Linux. Has a signed content distribution system.

The rest is completely specious, common place, or unverifiable without any code. Also, it mentions Android elsewhere.

Finally, as other have pointed out, I'm still none the wiser for what it actually is. Obviously it's a indie game library. But what's all this "WorldKi’s network"? Does it do display, sound, input? OpenGL/DirectX? You don't even say what language one uses the library with, we are left to infer C++.

[benbradley]

It's a very nice looking website but as others have said, the tone is one that would actually make some indies switch off straight away, but I won't labor that point.

The first question that springs to my mind is where does it fit. It sounds like SDL, a network for freelancing, a game engine, and Steam all rolled into one? That seems a lot to put out in one go. Maybe you need to look at what the strongest part WorldKi and focus the site on that for now.

Having said that I really like the idea of being able to share pieces of code between indies. I was thinking lately that if something like drawing up a list of what screen resolutions the player's monitor supports is incredibly tedious, yet gets done by so many people. I don't want middleware, but if I could get *just that* from somewhere and know it would plug into my code without a hitch and be cross platform, that would be great. Would that be an example? Or is the actual WorldKi lib at a higher level than that?

[Wren]

Benbradley your last point nails it.

At its root the platform is about licensing and sharing useful pieces of code between indies.  Your example about having to reinvent the wheel on something basic and tedious is exactly what we are trying to adress.

I think we maybe got ahead of ourselves in trying to communicate the vision and drowned out the basic value it has.  We spend a lot of time explaining it to non-programmers so maybe we forgot how to speak technically and to the point =)

We are still very early stage, so a lot of what is being requested is out of our reach...  As far as "getting started" is the wiki helpful here or is this too much of a deluge?  It's being documented as we work so it's not a refined tutorial.

Thanks for all the constructive feedback, please keep it coming =)

[st33d]

Yeah, your unfortunate position is that you're trying to sell to developers without offering them an entry point.

The point of sale of any development solution is, "hey, look at how easy it is to set up a project, I just do this and BAM, I'm ready to go!"

Case in point:





No letting on of how their code works, but looks very exciting to developers, because it looks like setting up a project is really easy. Sure I have lots of questions about what the drawbacks are, but some of the features there already have me interested.

The problem isn't marketing, it's marketing that isn't aimed at the target audience.

[Jonathan Whiting]

The deal with anything library like: Until I've some idea what it actually feels like to use I couldn't care less about it.

Feature lists, vision statements, beta programs etc. etc. are infinitely less important to me than seeing some code up-front.  Seriously, put some impressive, game side code on the frontpage.  Then I can start deciding if it's worth my time to investigate it more completely.

If you *can't* find some concise, impressive and game side code to show off why you're great then you've got a bigger problem.