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[TeeGee]

If you can't pull off GDC you simply don't care enough to make it happen.  I'm sorry, but it's the truth.

seconding this

Are you guys kidding me? Or have you never ever heard of world outside of US?

I mean, for me a trip to the GDC would mean applying for a visa (try explaining to your embassy what indie games are) and spending equivalent of 3-4 months worth of average salary. Grant money for travel? Haha, I wish. Even when I was working full-time as a lead designer, for what was considered a pretty good salary here, I couldn't really afford spending that much just to hang around with the cool guys for a few days.

But I guess I just didn't wish for it hard enough . Sorry, but that's just offensive.

[yu Mamma]

If you can't pull off GDC you simply don't care enough to make it happen.  I'm sorry, but it's the truth.

seconding this

Are you guys kidding me? Or have you never ever heard of world outside of US?

I mean, for me a trip to the GDC would mean applying for a visa (try explaining to your embassy what indie games are) and spending equivalent of 3-4 months worth of average salary. Grant money for travel? Haha, I wish. Even when I was working full-time as a lead designer, for what was considered a pretty good salary here, I couldn't really afford spending that much just to hang around with the cool guys for a few days.

But I guess I just didn't wish for it hard enough . Sorry, but that's just offensive.

ya if your not a spoiled rich kid like these twats you arent passionate enough 

[starsrift]

It's a shame that Gunpoint isn't up for the Grand Prize or even with an hon. mention. That's possibly the game in the finalist list that I'm most excited about - and I categorically hate platformers. Nice to see the other ones there; I can't imagine selecting them was easy.

[Dragonmaw]

ya if your not a spoiled rich kid like these twats you arent passionate enough 

Banned.

(it's MattG)

[dislekcia]

Are you guys kidding me? Or have you never ever heard of world outside of US?

I mean, for me a trip to the GDC would mean applying for a visa (try explaining to your embassy what indie games are) and spending equivalent of 3-4 months worth of average salary. Grant money for travel? Haha, I wish. Even when I was working full-time as a lead designer, for what was considered a pretty good salary here, I couldn't really afford spending that much just to hang around with the cool guys for a few days.

But I guess I just didn't wish for it hard enough . Sorry, but that's just offensive.

Dude, I'm from Africa. Practically antipodean to San Francisco. When Desktop Dungeons was nominated, we knew we had to get to GDC somehow. We scraped together cash from our folks, got visas, bought airline tickets with miles from friends, whatever we could to get there. We couch-surfed with family 60 miles away and knew nobody when we first walked into the IGS...

5 days later we'd met so many awesome people and made hordes of new friends. GDC was so incredibly worth it that we're going back this year because we can't imagine NOT going. Last year we ran out of money in May, yet I still found a way to get to E3 and IndieCade after that. We're dirt poor and everything costs a ton more for us over in the US, but I don't feel offended at all by Matthew's point because it's 100% true: There will always be options if you're prepared to try.

One thing is certain though: You don't create more options for yourself by creating "us vs them" scenarios online that don't actually exist. Occam's razor could help these sorts of arguments quite a bit.

[Inanimate]

Determination goes a long way, but the tone was demeaning, and carried with it implied superiority. I can understand why they were offended.

[phubans]

[TeeGee]

If my game would get nominated, I would also go at all costs. Even if I had to sell a kidney. Then it would be an actual investment. And I'm not saying that I don't ever wanna go or that it won't ever be an option for me. I still have it better than 95% of the world.

However, saying that getting into the scene is as easy as simply going to the GDC, that it's "fucking cheap" or that you just need to wish it hard enough, is a huge painful simplification. Short-sightedness at best. It's in the same vein as "all homeless people are just too lazy to work" or "kids in Africa are hungry, because they don't want food bad enough".

I'm not going to whine that the world is an unfair place, because that's just banal, but having some perspective goes a long way. What's normal or easy for you, can be considered almost unattainable to someone who was just unlucky to be born on the wrong part of the globe.

[Matthew]

Spoiled rich kid?  Dude, my first GDC was '99, when I was 18.  I come from a family of four kids, with a single mom who worked part-time as a substitute teacher.  My success is my own (and I guarantee it isn't as much "success" as you think it is).

The appeal of the conspiracy/nepotism/whatever story is that others "made it" because they had resources I did not.  The truth is, anyone "ahead" of me has worked harder and for longer than I have.  They have sacrificed more to get what they want.  My reaction should be to dream big and work hard, not to throw around misdirected schoolyard insults.

Back to work for me!  See you guys next IGF shitstorm 

[deathtotheweird]

How old are you? 30, 31? You're still a kid, and you're obviously rich. And you act spoiled. So how are you not a spoiled rich kid? It's an opinion, not a fact. It's just the way I perceive you based on what little I know.

Because only an over-privileged white asshole would go around telling others who can't afford something that the reason they can't is because they don't care enough, that's all. And however wrong I may be, surely you can understand why I would think such a thing. If not, go fuck yourself you spoiled fucker.

[dislekcia]

I'm not going to whine that the world is an unfair place, because that's just banal, but having some perspective goes a long way. What's normal or easy for you, can be considered almost unattainable to someone who was just unlucky to be born on the wrong part of the globe.

I don't see how demanding that someone else have perspective on your personal situation is going to help you do whatever it is you need to do in order to overcome your own personal, wholly accidental, obstacles. Ok, so you're overseas and that makes going to GDC expensive. Yes. The next step in getting there is still up to you...

Also, I believe people have only spoken about getting to GDC as a counterpoint to this idea that there are in-crowds and exclusive clubs in the scene that mediate success somehow. The idea is that if you go to events with other indies at them, especially well known indies with big personal networks, and are friendly and a nice person, you'll broaden your own network of people that like you in the scene. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable point to me.

Again, explain how feeling annoyed or offended or excluded on a forum helps change your personal situation at all. Perhaps I'm simply not understanding your point.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i don't think people post on a indie game forum in order to change their personal situation -- that's kind of a strange assumption

[increpare]

it is true that it's always possible, but the point is opportunity cost: what else would a person have to give up to go to the gdc? for some people they wouldn't have to give up much, for other people they might have to give up much more

Yeah, that's the reason I haven't gone until this year.  Going + actually having a good time is going to cost over a grand (USD).  That's a month's development time, to meet some lovely people admittedly, that I really want to meet, but that's not a priority for me (given that I have plenty of regular real life contact with indies I love here in the UK - and this is an important point).  I would not have gone except for IGF nomination.  IGF nomination = okay probably get on steam = okay, I can conscionably go (though it still feels like an indulgence  ).

Oh, as regards to getting tickets to GDC - if you follow the threads here in the run-up to it, people are usually giving away plenty of free tickets.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yeah, i agree increpare; if i were a finalist, i'd go for certain. but to go just to build up a network, when i'm not a finalist, and when i'm making less than $300 a month? not really worth the costs

[Glaiel-Gamer]

If my game would get nominated, I would also go at all costs. Even if I had to sell a kidney. Then it would be an actual investment.

Its an actual investment to go even if you weren't for a contest... Its still extremely worth it for how much it costs, there is nothing else that you could spend your money on that would get you as much long term gain as you do for going to GDC once.

[increpare]

Its an actual investment to go even if you weren't for a contest... Its still extremely worth it for how much it costs, there is nothing else that you could spend your money on that would get you as much long term gain as you do for going to GDC once.

That's a fair point I think.  I'm pretty short-sighted when it comes to thinking about consequential benefits.  I do wot I like.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i don't disagree either, but it's interesting that someone would openly admit that though: saying there's nothing more important than going to the gdc is admitting that connections matter more than game quality

[Glaiel-Gamer]

i don't disagree either, but it's interesting that someone would openly admit that though: saying there's nothing more important than going to the gdc is admitting that connections matter more than game quality

if you want to be successful it is

[TeeGee]

I'm not going to whine that the world is an unfair place, because that's just banal, but having some perspective goes a long way. What's normal or easy for you, can be considered almost unattainable to someone who was just unlucky to be born on the wrong part of the globe.

I don't see how demanding that someone else have perspective on your personal situation is going to help you do whatever it is you need to do in order to overcome your own personal, wholly accidental, obstacles. Ok, so you're overseas and that makes going to GDC expensive. Yes. The next step in getting there is still up to you...

Also, I believe people have only spoken about getting to GDC as a counterpoint to this idea that there are in-crowds and exclusive clubs in the scene that mediate success somehow. The idea is that if you go to events with other indies at them, especially well known indies with big personal networks, and are friendly and a nice person, you'll broaden your own network of people that like you in the scene. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable point to me.

Again, explain how feeling annoyed or offended or excluded on a forum helps change your personal situation at all. Perhaps I'm simply not understanding your point.

I have never said that I feel excluded or that I'm annoyed at anyone. Where did you get that? I even told Phubans he should just calm down and get back to making games. I don't support conspiracy theories or "us vs them" mentality.

I merely reacted to Matthew's post saying that getting into the scene is as easy as coming to the GDC, by adding that, while I agree in general, it's not that easy for everyone. I found his and Glaiel-Gamer's replies to be short-sighted to the point of being offensive and condescending, and that's what I'm opposing to.

I'm not looking to change my situation in any way, and I don't ask anyone to have perspective on my personal circumstances. I used myself as an example of someone for whom going to the GDC would take considerably more money/effort than for someone in the US. Personally, I'm not interested in the GDC much at this very point in my life, but I may be in the future. I still strongly disagree with the sentiment that if something is possible for you, it means that it's as easy for everyone else.

[Glaiel-Gamer]

but also keep in mind that some of those connections are also extremely useful in improving your game quality... just talking to jon blow or edmund or tommy for support or questions is an extremely helpful thing...