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TIGSource ForumsCommunityDevLogsMadcrawl - Traditional Roguelike with flair
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Author Topic: Madcrawl - Traditional Roguelike with flair  (Read 2098 times)
Gunroar:Cannon()
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« on: October 17, 2023, 11:18:01 AM »

The name was simple: AntiCrawl.

The vision was simpler: Survival game + Brogue.



So the thing is that most Roguelikes have survival elements in them especially ones like Brogue and Pixel Dungeon where food is scarce and hunger comes quick (as opposed to old versions of Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, where food isn't scarce and hunger barely comes, or Nethack, where hunger comes quick but food is abundant). Pixel Dungeon had the element even more because you couldn't just eat raw meat, but if you found some you would need to cook it in fire first. And I thought that was cool.

Though that was about it. Pixel Dungeon didn't (and still doesn't) label itself as a survival game. So I thought that I would expand on that.

But at one point I realized I was just trying to make turn based Don't Starve.
...
I didn't know what I was doing.

But then ...

DUNGEON CRAWL STONE SOUP

(I know that seems wierd. Like,"but then dungeon crawl stone soup", Huh?)

I hadn't even played Don't Starve for ... reasons (I plan on doing so eventually), but I know I didn't want to make my game too survival.
Roguelikes are about progressing through an area, so I didn't really want to put in basebuilding and though I already implemented crafting and an anvil item I also didn't want it to be in the game.
I made the map spacey and cave like but I was mostly lost in direction. I was just adding what I knew I wanted as the basics like a fire and gas system.



But the thing is, at that time, I started playing DCSS (Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup)...a roguelike. For me it was ...okay. Not better than Brogue, but okay. I was just clicking tab and "o" (autoexplore and autofight respectively) most of the time and then getting a warning that my HP was too low to autofight and I'd manually use the arrow keys and repeat the process until I came across a creature that would oneshot me at full health. Okay. I kept on trying and I found out playing as a different class (bezerker) was more fun, but still kind of ... lacking.

Then I found its alternate game mode: Dungeon Sprints.

DUNGEON CRAWL STONE SOUP: DUNGEON SPRINTS





Dungeon Sprints consist of a short map that condenses the whole game into one dungeon and it's beautiful. The first challenge, Dungeon Sprint 1 (a.k.a Red Sonja) puts the quest for "the orb of zot" (item needed to beat the game) into one floor instead of the 15+ it normally takes. DCSS on a normal has large maps for each floor but here it's compact and all the fluff is cut away. The level is the same (no procedural generation) every time yet I have quite a lot of fun replaying it over and over, checking different tactics against the difficult situations. Playing as a Bezerker makes me crazy strong but at the cost of food, which in that compact map becomes a problem (unlike in the main game where I mostly breeze through everything). The enemies are varied and each have different personalities instead of just goblin, hob goblin, orc, etc that basically do the same thing at the start of the game.

Challenging. Short. Exciting.

That's what I wanted my game to be,
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup: Dungeon Sprint: Red Sonja + Brogue.

+ BROGUE



If you know me even a little, or even if you don't then know now, that I will always, most times, in most games I try to make, add a "+ Brogue" or cite Brogue as a partial inspiration. The simplicity, the distinctions in items, the environmental systems, the lighting. That's why I'll always site Brogue. All it's enemies are so different from one another and have a role to play. Recently I came across a new enemy in Brogue (after +100 hours of play), the FlameDancer. It was unlike any of the other enemies I'd seen. It's surrounded by flames so you can't get close without burning or fire resitance. It hurls flames and keeps it's distance. It cancelled so many of my strategies for it.

I always think: "Brogue is good at putting you in a bad situation."

Kind of like what Rimworld does but without the AI storyteller. It's good at challenging your current build. That time I had one of the most overpowered items, a scale male of "respiration" which allowed me to step on traps of, let's say, paralysis gas, and not be affected while the creature right next to be gets paralyzed and it's an easy kill from there. But with the systems in play the fire would spread through the gas and stop it from being as effectivel burning me at the same time.
And Brogue has things to counter all builds, so you'll have to be prepared an not rely on one thing. Revenants don't take melee damage, pixies negate your magical effefts and cause allies to become enemies, Golems reflect spells, etc.


So I redid the philosophy of "AntiCrawl". It wasn't going to be a survival hotpot mess of a roguelike, it was going to be ...

Madcrawl.
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« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2023, 08:34:52 AM »

Quote from: Gunroar:Cannon()
Nethack, where hunger comes quick but food is abundant

It is?? I'm always dying of starvation in NetHack! I'm really bad at it.

I never got much into Brogue. I think I was playing it early-ish in its dev lifecycle and it must have gotten a lot better since then, for all the great things I hear about it.

Roguelikes rule! Good luck with your project.
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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2023, 11:10:07 AM »

Quote from: Gunroar:Cannon()
Nethack, where hunger comes quick but food is abundant

It is?? I'm always dying of starvation in NetHack! I'm really bad at it.


I thought that at first too, but most things drop corpses you should eat immediately (or save like lichen corpses that don't rot).

Quote
I never got much into Brogue. I think I was playing it early-ish in its dev lifecycle and it must have gotten a lot better since then, for all the great things I hear about it.

Yes, it is great XD

Quote
Roguelikes rule! Good luck with your project.

Thanks Tiger Smiley


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I’ve always liked the ways some games implemented shopkeepers, namely Spelunky and Nethack. There’s also …erm… I can’t even really think of any other games that implement shops this well, roguelike or other wise (of course there may be others, but none I’m immediately aware of).


Spelunky and nethack are both roguelikes, and both of them keep to the roguelike spirit of a wacky, emergent, non modular world (lack of immersion-breaking menus and alternate game screens for actions like battling, dialog or … shopping. Nethack still has an inventory menu but Spelunky takes it even further by not really having one). Even some more traditional roguelikes are less roguelike than Spelunky in my opinion (e.g. DoomRL, and to me Spelunky has a more roguelike spirit than Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, which seems to care more about … tactics(?) and stats than emergent stories, which is fine). In most games when you want to buy something from a shopkeeper there’s a one way interaction. or at most 2 way, where you can sell your items for 10% it’s price, but that kind of insentivises hauling unnecessary loot one doesn’t need and that’s why quite some games these days are doing away with it (or have it missing or hard to do for most of the playthrough). From Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup mentioned earlier, Slay the Spire and even Undertale (which mocks the thought of selling something).



But in Nethack, as should be the immersive roguelike way, you may interact with the shopkeeper as with any other creature (according to the Berlin intepretation, a trait of roguelikes that … not a lot of roguelikes, traditonal or not, tend to keep; a trait that I think would be cool if more games adopted it). So this means you can attack the shopkeeper like every other creature. His merchandise don’t take up invisible space and aren’t hidden away, they are there. On display. Like a real shop. You can pick up items. You can pick up some merchandise you want to buy. Like a real customer. And, naturally, you can (attempt to) steal. As viable or unviable as this option isl it’s there and the game is better for it.



Spelunky was inspired by Nethack (A nethack + super mario mix if you will) so naturally the shopkeeper was just like every other creature. Though stealing was a lot harder and more likely to get your character killed, but it was there. The shopkeeper was an actual character. And it was nice gosh dang it.
It really would be nice if more games could be more “non-modular” and not take the lazier path in design.
In Madcrawl, what I envision as “Roguelike: the game”, even though it was inspired by Brogue (which has no shops, despite having gold coins, which is just used as a score system), I needed a shop. One you can steal from. One you can accidentally burn down. One where you can make immortal enemies with the overpowered burly man selling you potions.
And that’s just what I did.


(A funny bug that came out if this is the shopkeeper not getting angry at you if you set his shop on fire using gas from outside, but that story is for another day.)
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« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2023, 06:50:26 PM »

Crypt of the NecroDancer is my favorite Roguelike, and it has an in-game shop with an interactible shopkeeper, although the rules with it are slightly different (you can't attack the shopkeeper with normal weapons without bombing him first) and you can't steal unless the shopkeeper is dead or you have a Ring of Shadows. Also, it's the same shopkeeper on every floor, so if you kill one, no shop will be stocked on lower floors. And instead of putting a hostile shopkeeper on every floor, the Shopkeeper's ghost will come for you 1 time before the end of the dungeon.
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2023, 08:02:44 AM »

Ahhh, seems like crypt of the necrodancer really did study the genre. I like the sound of that (pun intended?)

Overtime I've been working on quite some things. Here's just a few of them.



The shop I talked about.


A bunch of weapons.

I've been looking at Dungeon and Dragons for monster inspiration (like most other roguelikes) and though I don't really like everything, it also reminds me of the more powerful monsters that are cool, like mind flayers (?), liches and , you would never have guessed, dragons?


Behold my beholder!


Gelatinous_cube, what a chunky boi



Lich I did last night.


Dark lich.

So far I'm working on a tutorial.


Tutorial friends!


Making prefabs for said tutorial.

When the I finish tutorial (I've typed tutorial too many times now. Wait, typing tutorial again just now only makes it worse...wait) I'll release the prototype and accept donations because making the best traditional roguelike ever is draining work.
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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2024, 02:30:35 AM »

Finally! A small demo for the traditional roguelike that y'all can try!!  Evil





https://hmmmgames.itch.io/madcrawl

Madcrawl is a game I've been working on for a llloooooongish time now with the mindset of making it a (or ...the) definite "modern" roguelike. An inspiration soup of **nethack + Spelunky + Brogue + DCSS sprint mode Red Sonja Map (yes)**.



I'd really appreciate anyone trying the game and I'll double appreciate any donations if you really like the idea to help make development ... quicker (I've been hitting some rough patches in life lately).





It's just a small thing. It's the planned tutorial of the final game so it's pretty linear but there are a bunch of secrets and roguelike like things to do.


Some features

* A fully animated traditional roguelike! Isn't that rate Smiley

* Polymorph, Teleport and ... Mind transfer? (Yes)

* Environmental interactions. Watch the world burn!! Boil Potions!! Choke on Farts!

* The scrolls and potions everyone loves

* Unique weapon modifiers

* A Lich, a kobold(?) and a skeleton walk into a bar...

* A bunch of hidden activities. Cracked walls and the likes...

* A boy named Harry, a girl called Sakura and a chad going by Jon all in one game!

(It can run on android to with some work around, okay-ish on a tablet. Though not really meant for it Tongue)



https://hmmmgames.itch.io/madcrawl

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« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2024, 04:53:35 PM »

I…I’m trying to create a dragon for madcrawl.
But the problem is in a tile based game how
do I add such a big creature (yakuza) like a
dragon (I don’t want creatures or items to take
up multiple tiles for now) ? Well, I looked for
inspiration.

Firstly ASCII roguelikes just normally have a big
‘ol “D” to symbolise a dragon and that’s it. So I
needed to look at more modern games to see
if it could be done and if so how.

My only finding of such phenomenom
includes…CRYPT OF THE NECRODANCER!



Yes, that dragon, though a little bit out of its
tile, is contained in one cell. Huzzah!!
But then…I don’t like the fact the dragon isn’t
flying. So I came up with a double solution!



WIP!! (not completed at all)

Yeaahhh! Now it will both fly and fit in one cell
(since vertical space doesn’t really matter to
me).


Phewph. I was beginning to wonder how I can
have a roguelike without any dragon.

Madcrawl
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