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[Problem Machine]

Neither of those have anything to do with the skeletal/muscular structure though. I'm no expert, but my observation has been that aside from the average size difference there's no difference between women and men in breadth of back. I don't hold any truck with 'ideal' feminine forms when there's no basis for it being either ideal or feminine.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Still, in art, often the symbolic is more recognizable than the actual. As an example, women in videogames often have far larger breasts than they do in real life, on average. This is partly because men tend to prefer that more also partly because it makes female characters more recognizable as females. Even 16x16 or 16x32 pixel sprites on the SNES tended to have females with very large breasts relative to average, because they were easier to recognize as females that way. Similarly, males in art are often far more muscular than the average male. But I agree that these are not necessarily good to do. It's a style difference though, romanticism vs naturalism.

[Radnom]

I agree with Rinkuhero.

If you're looking for readability, especially in smaller pixel art, exaggeration is important. A girl has long hair, breasts, hips, curvy pose. Guy has short hair, muscles, broad shoulders, staunch pose.

[Problem Machine]

All those are good things to know, but any artist will tell you that you should learn to portray reality before you start stylizing it.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I agree, but his goal is probably not to become a professional artist, but just to draw a character for a game, so spending a good amount of time learning accurate anatomy may be overkill if all he wants is a character -- learning anatomy well might take longer than making the game itself.

[Problem Machine]

I suppose, but myself I'm not willing to do anything if I can't do it right. Even if he decides to make that choice, though, he should make it with full knowledge that he IS making that choice. So I'm glad I brought it up.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Yes, agreed. Although I think not doing something unless you can do it right usually leads to not doing it at all a lot of the time. As an example, in the Game Maker community, there are plenty of people better at coding in Game Maker Language than I am, but typically I find that the best programmers are exactly those people who never finish a game. Whereas the ones with the most prodigious output (like Cactus) probably aren't the most skilled at game development in the getting things right sense, but just the most obsessed with finishing projects.

Anyway, that's all theoretical, in this particular case I think it might be useful for him to just copy the female form a few times, based on pictures. There's no excuse for not knowing what the female body looks like if you're using the internet, no matter how isolated you are in real life.

Another thing is: Iji had horrible anatomy, and was one of the best indie games of last year. So you don't necessarily need to know how to draw very well to make great games.

[TooMuchSpareTime]

Handy things I learned at life drawing classes:

When starting off with your basic shapes, remember that the adult male's centre of mass is closer to the chest, whereas an adult female's is lower, like around the hips. (This lower centre of mass allows women to more naturally put their weight on one leg without compromising balance like top-heavy men would, as december pointed out.)

Similarly when animating: a feminine walk is often one that uses the hips prominently - a manly walk is usually one with a lot of shoulder movement. These should be the widest parts of each body (not necessarily true for every case in real life, but certainly if you're stylising your drawings).

Taper fingers, and make the hands of women smaller overall.

Keep up your life drawing regularly if you want to get better (and stay better)!

P.S. In general, for figure drawing, draw the head LAST!

[aeiowu]

I suppose, but myself I'm not willing to do anything if I can't do it right. Even if he decides to make that choice, though, he should make it with full knowledge that he IS making that choice. So I'm glad I brought it up.

I hear ya, but for anyone to do it right you'll need to do 10,000+ drawings from life first. Not sure if any of us have the time for that + game development. That said, if the result you're after is a physical drawing, you'll have to be really really really lucky to get it right without having a good amount of experience drawing the figure. Even a pixeled figure will show the lack of experience with the human form, especially in the animation, but it will be less noticeable.

I practice life drawing when I can, use no reference and challenge myself personally on that level. However when it comes to getting something done, I'll beg borrow and steal anything I can to get the done job.

[Problem Machine]

Personally I've been feeling down on my art skills recently. I've been letting them rot. So if I get snappish about art stuff, that's probably a big part of the reason why  :D
I made a tremendous amount of progress in two years... and since then very little. I may have lost my dedication. I aim to get it back.

BTW, I totally hear you guys about having to say 'enough' in order to get the job done; in fact, this is one of the primary problems I'm coping with in my quest to produce personal game projects now. All I can say is... if one can put oneself in a position where that choice IS a choice, then that's great. Myself, I don't get to choose; I'll probably always be anal.

[Saker]

hehehe :D ,... u make me remmember ma self
anyway , that link could be useful fo' ya .

[John Nesky]

Check this out:
http://www.biomotionlab.ca/Demos/BMLwalker.html
Turn on the lines, and then play with the gender slider.

[Problem Machine]

play with the gender slider.

Oh, some days I do nothing else.

[partymetroid]

Sorry for the time spent between now and my last post.

I agree, but his goal is probably not to become a professional artist, but just to draw a character for a game, so spending a good amount of time learning accurate anatomy may be overkill if all he wants is a character -- learning anatomy well might take longer than making the game itself.

I can take as long as I want to make the game.  In all honesty, I really want to become an artist as well.  Art has always been my passion, even before video games.  My elementary school dream was to become an artist.   (Then again, my 4th grade dream was to become a physicist...)  I've always wanted to draw realistically, though sometimes I doodle stylized for fun.  I really should post some of my doodles; they're quite amusing.

The character I'm wanting to draw should be modest in appearance; she's supposed to be a religious sister.   Therefore, I want to draw her... not busty, but still feminine.  She's going to have breasts, a fairly large hip, and the 11 pads of fat .

BTW, what's a coccyx?  I'm afraid to look it up, lol.

Anyway, I really appreciate all the posts.  I'll post again in this thread when I have another sketch made. :X

[Problem Machine]

BTW, what's a coccyx?  I'm afraid to look it up, lol.

Tailbone

[partymetroid]

BTW, what's a coccyx?  I'm afraid to look it up, lol.

Tailbone

Oh, thought so.

Anyway, to the sketch pad!  *da da da-da-da-da*

[Arne]

Did someone plug http://www.posemaniacs.com/blog/ yet?

Pushing the stereotype:

Females have curves. Extremities gets thinner, e.g. Butt starts big, then the leg gets thinner towards the feet. Same with fingers. Hands should not be too big and squarish.

Opposite for males. Blocky and square. Extremities are more chunky.

I think a good way to learn is to practice cartoon and realism at the same time. Then you learn what lines to exaggerate and what anatomical part it is that you actually exaggerate. If you just practice cartoon style you won't know where the lines are coming from (they are a product of sorts, and you don't have the formula). If you just practice realism you'll have a hard time finding the traits which are good to exaggerate.

[partymetroid]

Did someone plug http://www.posemaniacs.com/blog/ yet?

Pushing the stereotype:

Females have curves. Extremities gets thinner, e.g. Butt starts big, then the leg gets thinner towards the feet. Same with fingers. Hands should not be too big and squarish.

Opposite for males. Blocky and square. Extremities are more chunky.

I think a good way to learn is to practice cartoon and realism at the same time. Then you learn what lines to exaggerate and what anatomical part it is that you actually exaggerate. If you just practice cartoon style you won't know where the lines are coming from (they are a product of sorts, and you don't have the formula). If you just practice realism you'll have a hard time finding the traits which are good to exaggerate.

I'm not so sure I want learn about the feminine form from a pantymaster.

[edit]http://www.thesupersecret.com/aaron/scan0001.jpg

Still not great, but better.  Over-simplified, but I assume it's better to get the basics down right before failing at more advanced things.

[michael]

who better than a connoisseur?

[Arne]

Here Loomis is marking the various bulging shapes quite clearly. I don't agree with some of the proportions, but the curve placement is useful to reference.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q166/iagainstcomics/loomis.jpg