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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperArt (Moderator: JWK5)itt: good character designs
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tylerjhutchison
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« Reply #260 on: February 28, 2012, 02:35:14 PM »

BATTLE BEASTS!!!

and Z-bots.

both of these things were so amazing.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #261 on: February 28, 2012, 02:49:57 PM »

@phubans never actually had starriors actually, but they look pretty cool

since we're talking about good 80s designs though, here's one:

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s0
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« Reply #262 on: February 28, 2012, 03:46:40 PM »

ornstein and smough are my fave comedy duo
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Kevin
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« Reply #263 on: February 28, 2012, 05:54:36 PM »

ornstein and smough are my fave comedy duo

I tried taking them on in NG+. I wasn't laughing.
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Jad
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« Reply #264 on: February 29, 2012, 04:54:59 AM »

Yeah, Nomura ruined Final Fantasy with his Harajuku androgyny bullshit. Way to suck the creativity and art out of characters and reduce them into every other vapid teenager who's got a Hot Topic gift card.

I can't decide if that's worse or the "generic mid-30's white guy" that's been plaguing the Western AAA studios for the past couple years.

"Generic mid-thirties white guy" is boring and bland and unoriginal, but at least it's not embarrassing.


Uagh, I prefer embarassing over bland any day. I wish there was place for all sorts of designs. I'll remember that from now, that I'd rather be embarassing than to blandify to avoid being embarassing. That was actually kind of an eye-opener O:

Tidus' design is definitely a lot more visually stimulating than, say, Shepard's, but there's a difference between stimulating and good. I totally support and prefer interesting, even crazily outlandish designs if done well. I just find that, while Shepard is definitely more bland than Tidus, from a design perspective the N7 armor is a lot more solid than whatever Tidus is wearing.

Yes! And .. Good is subjective. I think Tidus makes sense in his world. He's an obnoxious show-off and I've seen people with weirder clothing in real life!
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #265 on: February 29, 2012, 09:44:46 AM »

yeah but if the clothes were meant to be strange / uncommon you'd have thought some of the characters or npcs in the game would comment on how he is dressed. but they said nothing, which sort of implies it's normal

i do think his clothing is better than lulu's though, which is like 500 belts
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phubans
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« Reply #266 on: February 29, 2012, 03:26:01 PM »

Here is some clarification regarding my previous statement that Final Fantasy has been ruined by Nomura's inability to deviate from androgynous Harajuku-styled characters who look like every other vapid teenager with a Hot Topic gift card.

I'm just disgusted with the whole "EVERYONE IS ATTRACTIVE IN THIS WORLD" trope that both Eastern and Western games seem to be employing these days. Last night I was watching a video review for a game called The Last Story on Wii, and it looked indistinguishable from a modern Final Fantasy. I absolutely *hate* this kind of character design, to me it feels so cookie-cutter, bland, and uninspired WHILE being obnoxious, embarrassing, and stupid.

Yeah, so you've got the main character, who is almost ALWAYS this skinny, shaggy-haired pretty boy with leather jacket and fur collar. The leather jacket is replete with rivets, buckles, and straps. He's wearing a belt and form-fitting jeans that manage to hang loosely; more rivets, buckles, and straps. He's probably carrying some elaborate, over-sized sword that looks like a can-opener or something.

Now look at his RAG-TAG party... I'm so sick of hearing this word to describe RPG parties: RAG-TAG. Since when has an RPG character cast NOT been rag-tag? Do we even have to acknowledge this anymore? But the problem with the so-called "diversity" between characters in RPG parties you see today is that they aren't quite so diverse. For example, take the side-kick; you may have the cheeky, sporty, more muscular and slightly-tanned dude with the squinty eyes and pointy hair... So superficially he might look different from the main character (different eyes, different hair, different clothes) but fundamentally he's the same; an attractive dude who buys the latest fashions and spends way too much time on his hair every morning.

Where are the quirky, eccentric, and wild characters? Where are talking yet not physically anthropomorphic dogs with fire on their tails? Where are the grizzled technology-fearing Tom-Selleck-looking samurais who speak like they've stepped out of the 16th century? Where are the girls with green hair and mist dragons? The children draped in monster hides? In fact, when is the last time a child or older adult was even a member of your party in one of these RPGs? Where are the swearing, cigarette-smoking pilots? Worst of all, where are the bad-ass Dark Knights and Dragoons clad in full-plate armor?

Instead, we get this:



I actually had to Google "final fantasy 12 main character" because Vaan was so easily forgettable (don't even ask me to tell you who else was in that game). I know what the fanboys and fangirls are screaming right about now; they're screaming that these characters are different in appearance and personality, they boast qualities and stories that widely separate them from one another. I disagree, because here's what I see on all three leading characters:

Long, shaggy hair? Check.
Physically attractive faces with effeminate features? Check.
All in the same age group of about 18 years old? Check.
Decked out in clothing that is more fashionable than functional? Check.

Same skin color/tone, same arch to their eyebrows, same nose shape, same facial structure, all adhering to the "Caucasian standard of beauty"... And people slam Toriyama for being unoriginal?? This is just scratching the surface, and I'm not even going to get into the fact that all of these characters have the same teenage love story drama as the focal point of their character development. It's a joke.

Who can relate to this standard of physical perfection? Is this all just some wet dream for nerds to aspire towards? Of all the gamers out there, the hardcore RPG nerds I've met have been some of the most physically unattractive, so if anything they should be outraged that none of these characters that they're role-playing represent them. Oh, but it's a role-playing game, you're not *supposed* to be playing as yourself, right? Maybe true, but I'd personally rather play a scruffy 30-year-old dude with a chip on his shoulder than some bright-eyed teen who's completely absorbed into keeping up with the latest fashion trends.

One might think my bitterness towards the current marketing trends of the jRPG industry denote that I've outgrown the jRPG model entirely. Then how does that account for my love of the classics that put more emphasis on exploration, variety, and the stories and personalities of the characters, rather than their design? Sure, nostalgia could be blamed for this, had I not recently played the DS remake of Dragon Quest VI. Here is a game I had never played before. I wasn't sure that I'd like it since I thought it might be out of dates by today's standards. Instead, it turned out to be a breath of fresh air in my gaming experience over the past decade.

I guess I can stand replaying all of the old classics again and again while everyone else keeps affirming the direction (decline?) of Final Fantasy by buying the latest titles while the old fans wring their hands. But I guess I'm saying all of this as a message in a bottle from where I'm stranded, hoping that maybe this message will eventually reach the people who can do something about this. I believe it is possible to keep the series fresh and marketable to today's demographics, while still having something for the millions of fans that funded the company before it became what it is today. At least, one old fan can only hope...
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 03:33:59 PM by phubans » Logged

ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #267 on: February 29, 2012, 03:31:33 PM »

shadow madness was a bad game, but i think it had pretty great character design; its party was totally against the stereotypes phubans just laid out

Quote
Stinger (hero) — When the chaos wipes out his hometown, he vows to end the chaos.
Windleaf — Joins Stinger after her secluded sylvan village gets attacked.
Harv-5 — Robot originally created for harvesting crops, but when the demons destroy his fields and home he sets out to find out his purpose. His catchphrase of sorts is "There will be death."
Xero Von Moon — Mage Warrior who has been resurrected from his deep sleep, he has no body so floats around with just his head.
Clemett — He is a native Gadgeteer, but he didn't agree with how they lived so went to live with humans, and when the chaos started he vowed to protect his 'Friends'.
Jirina — She is a proud Org-Ta and a native of the underground world known as Wyldern. Her people have been enslaved by the Darg who turned a once peaceful land into a twisted hell. She vows to get revenge.



it also had great music:

« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 03:36:59 PM by Paul Eres » Logged

phubans
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« Reply #268 on: February 29, 2012, 03:36:43 PM »

Two things; that game is NOT a jRPG (as far as I can tell) and it's from 1999. I'm mostly referring to games post-2000 that have been unable to stop themselves from mimicking Final Fantasy VIII's design.

I think a better and more recent example would be Shadow Hearts: From the New World on PlayStation 2, which reminded me more of a good 3D Final Fantasy like VII than any other game in the actual Final Fantasy series managed to do.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #269 on: February 29, 2012, 03:39:14 PM »

it's sort of a jrpg. it was made by an american team, but in the style of a jrpg; it played like a poor man's ff7, not like a crpg. to use wikipedia's terminology, it was a "console-style rpg" not a "computer-style rpg"

and yea, it's not a modern game, but i just wanted to bring it up because the character designs were pretty great. what other game has a flying head that joins your party? well, besides planescape (and that was just a skull, not a magically living head)
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« Reply #270 on: February 29, 2012, 06:36:18 PM »

Ickis, Krumm and Oblina are among my fav character designs. Yes, they are ugly, but that's the whole point. I kinda dig Klasky Csupo's style, except when they are trying to use it for less outlandish designs, like the all grown up and ginger character designs.

Compare and contrass!





ya i had those too. but as far as my "favorite" toy line goes, i raise you one battle beasts and challenge you with dino-riders



That t-rex is not the dino riders one. I owned that bastard. Heresy.

EDIT: I just noticed it has the damn JP logo. Get that shit outta there!
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ink.inc
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« Reply #271 on: February 29, 2012, 08:24:07 PM »

sweet jp from redline





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iffi
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« Reply #272 on: February 29, 2012, 09:19:42 PM »

Redline has some a lot of really wacky character designs. I wonder how JP keeps his hair like that - I mean, it doesn't even budge throughout all the crazy things he goes through, and may as well be a part of his skull.
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EdgeOfProphecy
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« Reply #273 on: March 01, 2012, 12:07:25 AM »

Man I've been eying the Redline art book for about a month now.  Very, very tempted to buy it.

The pompadour.  It calls to me.
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« Reply #274 on: March 01, 2012, 12:26:36 PM »

all adhering to the "Caucasian standard of beauty"
what are you on

it's clearly adhering to the "Japanese standard of beauty."
have you looked at any japanese fashion, i don't think caucasian fashion would ever focus on their core aspects. there's a reason why ff13 female chars all look more based off of japanese female models than white people.

ff12 hero/vaan isn't even the protagonist. the player plays the role of an observer. it's basch who's the real star-baby. i think they changed it to vaan because vagrant story got a bad reception because you played as an older than usual (and daddy) char too. of course, they're pretty too, but i prefer their personalities.

i'm not sure if it was marketing pressure that caused vaan to appear, but i think it's an interesting perspective, where your own role isn't central, to be used in a rpg.

i am mostly talking about the actual function of the character than the visual design, but i think that's more important to look it. visual character design should never supplant the actual function and design (personality, etc) of the character. vaan's visual design is somewhat irksome with the armor he has. he would've been better without it. as i can't see how armor embellishes on how he's a street rascal who lithely steals. without it, i think it's fine and aladdin-esque.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 12:45:56 PM by thernz » Logged

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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #275 on: March 01, 2012, 01:01:49 PM »

i've heard that the japanese are considered "yellow americans" by the rest of asia -- their standard of beauty is largely america's standard of beauty, because their culture has in large part (since the end of ww2) been dominated by influences from american culture. there's a huge number of english loan words in japanese now, for example (to a much greater extent than in, say, chinese). a lot of people in japan even have plastic surgery to make them look less asian, and more white
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« Reply #276 on: March 01, 2012, 01:08:36 PM »

It's more like a corrupted second-hand sense of American beauty that doesn't strongly correlate to American taste now anyway. Shrug It's evolved into its own thing. Kinda like how bizarre Deadly Premonition is. I really wouldn't put much value in the racist opinions of other groups too. I mean they've also called Japan morally defunct, and I believe there's a substantial amount of Korean influence nowadays. I really don't think bishounens or etc., aka the source of the problem for Phubans, came from American influence. Hell, Yoshitaka employed a lot of
Quote
Long, shaggy hair? Check.
Physically attractive faces with effeminate features? Check.
All in the same age group of about 18 years old? Check.
Decked out in clothing that is more fashionable than functional? Check.
too. Their faces are even more extremely idealized when Yoshitaka does that.

of course he's western-influenced too
there's clearly a lot of jean giraud in his work, as well as the typical western fantasy

nomura is terrible for other reasons, they're less rooted in fashion-fetishism and in how he applies those elements, be it: color, balance, etc.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 01:36:32 PM by thernz » Logged

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« Reply #277 on: March 01, 2012, 01:52:33 PM »

ff12 hero/vaan isn't even the protagonist. the player plays the role of an observer. it's basch who's the real star-baby. i think they changed it to vaan because vagrant story got a bad reception because you played as an older than usual (and daddy) char too.

i'm not sure if it was marketing pressure that caused vaan to appear, but i think it's an interesting perspective, where your own role isn't central, to be used in a rpg.

I was surprised to read about Nier, and the notable difference in reception it got when they changed the protagonist.



Seems japan hates adults or smth.

Then again, a lot of manga/anime that has adults interacting with teens, seem to glorify/corrupt adulthood a lot, with emphasis of grown women being whorish, and apprently teens wondering how an adult kisses and shit.


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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #278 on: March 01, 2012, 02:10:43 PM »

metal gear solid has some older characters, except for mgs2 with raiden (the characteristic bishounen)
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« Reply #279 on: March 01, 2012, 02:18:02 PM »

More like A LOT of older characters - Big Boss, Campbell, Major Zero, Ocelot, Peter Stillman, Vulcan Raven, Solidus Snake, the whole Cobra Unit, Dead Cell, Volgin...

By the way, wasn't the older Nier in US and maybe Europe and the younger in Japan? I think it was a matter of region, not console.
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