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[Peevish]

I'm gearing up to make a smallish project that is a little bit beyond my skills as a programmer. I've tried working with coders before, for free, and had a great time, but they they can only do so much free work before they get offers for paid work.

I'm in a position now where I could probably raise up a little money to pay a coder. Probably not what a coder deserves, but at least something. If I were to ballpark a project at maybe 3 months of part-time work (taking into account that everything takes longer than you think), what's reasonable payment for an indie? Too little and they may get a better offer; too much and I run out of money before the project's over.

Anyone got any ideas?

[Xienen]

Well, if you're trying to "compete" with typical hourly rates, an entry level programmer makes about $20/hr, while a 3 year programmer makes about $29/hr, and a 6+ year programmer(Senior programmer) makes about $39/hr.  Now that's an employed programmer who is usually receiving healthcare benefits, so a contract programmer usually expects about $5/hr more.

That being said, if you can find a programmer with a full-time job who is looking to do this work on the side AND you can offer a % of the profits, you can probably reduce the hourly rate by 25-50% and still keep them very happy.

Having worked with a number of programmers on a contract basis, I can tell you that this is the hardest area to contract out because it's nearly impossible to know how long something did/should/would take to complete, regardless of the manager's level of programming experience.  Sadly, I have no real advice to offer here, other than to say "I wish you the best of luck and hope you find one of the few stand-up contract programmers out there".

[PompiPompi]

One possible choice is to hire programmers where your currency is worth more. For instance I heard of someone hiring a programmer in Poland(he already have a job but that's just extra side work for him).
The big issue is that you need someone competent. So it's not enough he is cheap, if he is not competent it's a waste of your money because you will end up with a crappy, buggy product. That polish guy was competent though, maybe because he also got a regular job and is not as desperate as a cheap entry programmer might be.
Another big issue is, if you are not competent enough yourself, you can't go through his code and do the little fixes, final work on the code. Which is really bad, because you don't have a way to supervise his work.
So I think you have two choices, either hire a competent programmer from another country where your currency is worth more. Or have a partnership with someone offering 50% of the profits.
I don't think you will find someone that is competent, don't want a share of the profits, and is willing to be paid something that is not close to his optimal wage.
There might be other choices I didn't think about though...

[ubik]

A big question is why a programmer would work for you to develop your idea at lowball wages when he can program his own game and keep all the money.  Game programmers are very smart and creative.  What are you bringing to the table?

This is a double edged sword.  If you find some contractor willing to work for peanuts odds are he is not qualified.

If you outsource to Uzbekistan you will get what you deserve.

[Moczan]

Love the racism in this thread <3

[ubik]

I'm actually from a country very close to Uzbekistan so perhaps you might want to revise your knee-jerk political correctness.

If I moved to Uzbekistan I would not want to hire programmers who live in the US.  Hiring people who live in other countries has a whole host of issues associated with it, not least the cross-jurisdictional issues associated with making sure you get paid, making sure they do the work, et cetera.

Ever try to sue someone who lives in the Philippines?  The legal system will just laugh at you.

[PompiPompi]

ubik, if you get to the stage you need to sue someone over work, you are going to lose anyway. And there are enough crooks everywhere.
I guess if you chat with someone over some dev chats for a while, you get to know someone virtually, then it is easier for you to hire him.
I guess the easiest legal way to pay him is using pay pal? Yea, payment might be a beuracracy issue, but once you get that sorted out it is no longer an issue.

Moczan, did you get offended that I said to hire a polish programmer? From what I was told salaries in Poland are lower than in the US. So it make sense for a US citizen to hire a Polish programmer for cheaper. It's a win win situation. What is wrong and racist about that?

[eigenbom]

If I had the time for contract gamedev work I'd be happy with 30AUD/hr (~30USD), and would spend 2 days a week on it. 3 months would be ok for a short enough game. Soo around ~5800AUD total.

Another option would be to hire a university student over the summer break. Although this is more of a gamble in terms of quality, etc.

[ubik]

I have hired numerous programmers and worked with numerous outsourced developers, mostly in the Philippines.  To say that it was a huge can of worms is the understatement of the year.

But I really shouldn't argue about this sort of thing, do it a few times and you'll find out for yourself.

[Moczan]

Moczan, did you get offended that I said to hire a polish programmer? From what I was told salaries in Poland are lower than in the US. So it make sense for a US citizen to hire a Polish programmer for cheaper. It's a win win situation. What is wrong and racist about that?

Nope, it was ubik's comment "if you outsource to Uzbekistan, you get what you deserve". It's not knee-jerk political correctness, it's just plain common-sense. Saying stuff like "outsourcing programmer from random small country is bad" is stupid, because all the legal problem work both ways and it's even more dangerous for programmer than for contractor. If your programmer on the other side of the globe doesn't finish the work you just lost some time trying to find another one. If you are the programmer, finish the work and your contractor doesn't pay you, you are basically screwed. And if we talk about quality of code, seeing as for example ICPC is dominated by Russia, China and Poland for the past 15 years, I wouldn't say that getting more expensive programmer from so-called first-world countries will give you better quality code.

[ubik]

all the legal problem work both ways and it's even more dangerous for programmer than for contractor. If your programmer on the other side of the globe doesn't finish the work you just lost some time trying to find another one. If you are the programmer, finish the work and your contractor doesn't pay you, you are basically screwed

And this is why you shouldn't do it.

But again, your mileage may vary.  Competitors, go right ahead and hire programmers who live in Uzbekistan!  I won't stop you.

Moczan, what country are you from?

[Peevish]

Hey thanks, folks!

Primarily I'm looking for someone who just wants to work on a games project, which is the type of people I've worked with in the past. Trouble is, people can drift away when there's no money involved, so I'd like to pay them something, even if it's just more of a retainer than a reasonable wage. And I think we can keep on target if I clearly state "I can only pay you for 5 months."

I'd like somebody local that I can sit in a room with, so I'm guessing I should start trawling local colleges and whatnot. I dunno, where do people go to find local games collaborators, regardless of money?

[Xienen]

Obviously these forums are a good place to start, but you could also try the GameDev.net forums...and I'm sure there are a ton more options out there.

[rogerlevy]

If working on it part time (~20 hours a week), I'd take $1000 a month for a low budget indie game that I loved the concept of and wanted to work on.

[PompiPompi]

lol? $50 per hour? that's pretty steep.
I mean, you would get paid that much for a senior position in the Hi-Tech industry, I would think.
That's like $9000 a month in a full time job.

[tametick]

lol? $50 per hour? that's pretty steep.
I mean, you would get paid that much for a senior position in the Hi-Tech industry, I would think.
That's like $9000 a month in a full time job.

You charge more for contracting than for a normal full time job: no security, no  retirement payments, no payed leave, no sick leave, no insurance (social & medical), no taxes payed by employer.

Even beside all the extra expenses that an employer would normally pay for, as a contractor nobody actually works 40h week every week, there are always down times between contracts plus it takes some time and effort to get those contracts. In short it is a totally different beast.

When I was doing contracting (web development, not games) I would charge 75 euro/h ($100/h). For full time jobs in the same industry I would get payed 3500 euro/month, 14 times a year.

If you do the math assuming 40h weeks and 4 weeks per month that should have been 75*4*40=12000 euros per month, but of course I never got offered nearly that much for a normal full time position and nobody I know did, even tho I know several contractors that make as much or more than that in the equivalent hourly rate.

EDIT: not to mention dormin-kun actually said $1000/month for 20h/week, which means less than $12.5/h, not $50/h. But even 50 wouldn't be as outrageous as you suggest.

[eigenbom]

If working on it part time (~20 hours a week), I'd take $1000 a month for a low budget indie game that I loved the concept of and wanted to work on.

lol? $50 per hour? that's pretty steep.
I mean, you would get paid that much for a senior position in the Hi-Tech industry, I would think.
That's like $9000 a month in a full time job.

1000/(20*4) = $12.50 an hour. You'd earn more at Macdonalds.

[PompiPompi]

Math! Why you so hard?

[reallyjoel]

Here's a pro-tip:

Don't offer anything at first, hook them on the idea first! This is really important.

Then ask them what they want for working on it, AND KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT during their agony. They will negotiate themselves down to something well below of what they actually want. Then you say "What, that low? Let's make it a little more!" and they will think your the best boss that ever lived.

[tametick]

Then ask them what they want for working on it, AND KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT during their agony. They will negotiate themselves down to something well below of what they actually want. Then you say "What, that low? Let's make it a little more!" and they will think your the best boss that ever lived.

Unless they read this thread, in which case they'd know you're a manipulative bastard