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[shinygerbil]

No, not as far as the "popular science book" The Science of Discworld goes. For all I know, Pratchett/Cohen/Stewart got it wrong all the way through :D

[increpare]

No, not as far as the "popular science book" The Science of Discworld goes. For all I know, Pratchett/Cohen/Stewart got it wrong all the way through :D

Well if you mean 'memetics' to mean the practice of imitation, then the traditional spelling is 'mimetics'.

[Corpus]

He means Richard "God killed my mother" Dawkins' thing.

[Akhel]

Wow, god killed his mother? That's fucked up!

[shinygerbil]

He means Richard "God killed my mother" Dawkins' thing.

Yeah, that. but I dislike Dawkins. D:

[Al King]

Memetics is just a way of describing dissemination of ideas among people, so I guess it goes without saying that it's important for education.

[Kinten]

*WHIP*
Backt to monocle talk!

[Don Andy]

I sense a lack of monocle in my avatar that comes off as quite disturbing.

[increpare]

Memetics is just a way of describing dissemination of ideas among people

Do they have to be ideas?  Oxford english dictionary says that it describes the dissemination of culture elements among people  (for instance, is the badger song an

idea

?

[Al King]

The 'Badger Song' is an idea, definitely; or rather, the critical feature of memes is that people carry it in their heads - it's a 'psychological virus' - so the fact that it's 'more than an idea' is essentially irrelevant. I find 'cultural elements' unsatisfactory as 'culture' to me connotes with arbitrariness, whereas scientific ideas can still be memes.

So, a moot point, really; we're referring to the same thing.

EDIT:              /

[increpare]

So, a moot point, really; we're referring to the same thing.

Oxymoron of the week? 

The 'Badger Song' is an idea, definitely; or rather, the critical feature of memes is that people carry it in their heads

People don't carry the badger song in their head, though: it's stored electronically for the most part: the behaviour that people store is that of forwarding it on to other people.  They may retain a memory of the badger song, but I think it's pretty crucially tied up (at least for now) with the SWF file. 

I find 'cultural elements' unsatisfactory as 'culture' to me connotes with arbitrariness, whereas scientific ideas can still be memes.

Scientific ideas might be memes, but insofar as they are memes, I'd say that for the most part their acceptance is unscientific in nature.  For instance, you might take professed belief in creationism, or even better still: professed belief in evolution as examples of these.  I'm not at all comfortable with your term 'arbitrary' to describe culture, but if by 'arbitrary' you mean 'unscientific', I would personally find that insofar as scientific ideas are being looked at as memes, their understanding is best come at by treating them as a sort of cultural dynamic, rather than as a sort of scientific understanding.  By the simple fact that most people are not scientific authorities on most scientific matters about which they have 'beliefs', their understanding of these matters cannot be scientific.

So, a moot point, really; we're referring to the same thing.

irony of the week? 

[Al King]

People don't carry the badger song in their head, though: it's stored electronically for the most part: the behaviour that people store is that of forwarding it on to other people.  They may retain a memory of the badger song, but I think it's pretty crucially tied up (at least for now) with the SWF file.

I said that memes are memes insofar as people carry them in their head. The fact that it's a song external to one's mind is irrelevant, the critical fact is that people experience it and choose to pass it on by showing other people, tell other people about it, etc. The idea of the Badger Song, as ridiculous as the phrase sounds, is what's a meme, not the song itself. The popular understanding of the internet meme may conflate the two, but it's an inaccurate portrayal of the concept.

...

I am well aware of the way in which scientific concepts become cultural ones, 'pop-science' and the like; my point was that the primary things I associate with 'culture' are 'arbitrary' - songs, dances, artwork. (I use the term arbitrary to indicate that they are a matter of legacy, preference and opinion, rather than some immutable element of nature etc. I'm not 'putting down' culture, but I can't find a better word that arbitrary to describe culture in that sense.) This is not to suggest that culture does not have a broader meaning, but I was pre-empting misinterpretation by using a term which is to my mind more precise in its reflection of the idea - because to me 'idea' refers more generally to any concept. Evidently the converse is the case for you, but don't confuse this with anything other than semantics.

EDIT:

By the simple fact that most people are not scientific authorities on most scientific matters about which they have 'beliefs', their understanding of these matters cannot be scientific.

I don't see that this matters. Scientific concepts can certainly be considered 'cultural elements' with a sufficiently broad sense of 'culture', but it has nothing to do with the scientific expertise of those who pass on the meme. Any idea which gains popularity among the scientific community can be considered a meme (as, indeed, can any idea which doesn't ) despite their presumable scientific expertise and scientific understanding of the concept. The essential aspect is that something about an idea makes it more or less likely to be disseminated by people, allowing it to be considered to follow selection processes much like the genes which memes are defined by analogy with.

[Don Andy]

In a likely futile attempt to bring this thread back on the topic of monocles, I found it really hard to actually buy one.
I've browsed (the German) Ebay for quite a while, but couldn't find one decent monocle. If the TIGSource ever gets some sort of fanshop, it totally should sell top hats and monocles. They'd sell much better than t-shirts with top hats and monocles on them.

Or maybe not, but hey, I'd buy them.


Actually, no, I wouldn't, as the price for shipping the over to Germany would probably be too high

[increpare]

The idea of the Badger Song, as ridiculous as the phrase sounds, is what's a meme, not the song itself

It can be an idea, but it can also be a cultural artifact, a 'song', for instance.  If you continue to assert that this is impossible, then you must do so in the understanding that your usage is rather removed from any of the standard definitions or usages.

(the original definition, by Dawkins, according to wikipedia, defined it as " "a unit of cultural transmission, or a unit of imitation", OED gives a similar definition).

[Al King]

(the original definition, by Dawkins, according to wikipedia, defined it as " "a unit of cultural transmission, or a unit of imitation", OED gives a similar definition).

Exactly; a unit of cultural transmission, not of culture. The idea is linked irrevocably with the original artifact which created it, but is distinct. If a meme were inherent in the artifact itself, then there could be memes without humans, which makes no sense at all Consider the aura surrounding things like Sgt. Peppers, the Mona Lisa or viral marketing campaigns; they were certainly created by the artifact itself (well, some might dispute this; they are certainly associated with the artifact), but the meme - the concept which spreads in a memetic fashion between people - is separate.

EDIT: While we're falling back on Wikipedia, note:

A meme (pronounced /miːm/[1]) consists of any unit of cultural information, such as a practice or idea, that gets transmitted verbally or by repeated action from one mind to another.

Again, the song is not passed from one person's mind to the other - as you say yourself, the Badger Song's popularity is directly linked to the SWF file - the concept/popularity/meme of the song is. The OED is much vaguer on this point, describing an element of a culture/system of behaviour that "may be considered to be passed from one individual to another by non-genetic means", but the sentiment is the same - it passes from one individual to another, it doesn't 'become known' to them, as one would say of the artifact itself.

To bring it back to the subject - monocles don't pass between TIGers, the concept of monocles being awesome does.

[increpare]

Exactly; a unit of cultural transmission, not of culture. The idea is linked irrevocably with the original artifact which created it, but is distinct.

Well, I would say that the original artifact would be a unit of cultural transmission, as would all of it's duplicates.  Of course psychological associations and the like are important.  You say that the meme is, say, the idea that monocles are awesome, I say that the actual units of transmission are all these paintings of monocles and exclamations about monocles. 

Consider the aura surrounding things like Sgt. Peppers, the Mona Lisa or viral marketing campaigns; they were certainly created by the artifact itself (well, some might dispute this; they are certainly associated with the artifact), but the meme - the concept which spreads in a memetic fashion between people - is separate.

But the units of transmission in each case are not 'the idea of the mona lisa', but rather the actual physical image of the painting of the mona lisa, if not the original painting itself.

If a meme were inherent in the artifact itself, then there could be memes without humans, which makes no sense at all

Right.  But that's already incorporated within the idea of 'culture', which is rather inherently tied in to human psychology.

To bring it back to the subject - monocles don't pass between TIGers, the concept of monocles being awesome does.

People don't pass along concepts of awesomeness unmediated though, they do so using words, images and other things, not concepts.  And it is these things, which may mediate the idea that monocles are awesome, or something else entirely, that I would personally identify as being the memes. 

I *do*, to be sure, think that the psychological side of things cannot be ignored, but for me the meme is fundamentally a mix of the two: I'm not comfortable with what I see as being your purely psychological characterisation of them.

[Al King]

You're focussing too much on the method of transmission, when what's relevant is the fact that it's transmitted. If the meme relates to a physical artifact, then you can state unequivocally that the artifact itself is not transmitted. Hence, the meme itself is purely psychological.

The method of transmission can be seen - is seen, by Dawkins - as a mechanism of the meme. For example, a religion more often than not consists not only of ethical beliefs, but also the belief that other people should be told about it and converted. Internet memes like The Game and Rickrolling have a similar mechanism - 'tell other people about it'. The same goes for memes associated with great works - people think the Mona Lisa is a great work, and thus display it prominently and discuss it as an example of such, helping to distribute the meme. The Mona Lisa is a particularly conspicuous example as, once people experience it first hand, they often find it isn't that remarkable relative to their expectations: the idea of the Mona Lisa - as perpetuated by the image of the Mona Lisa - is more powerful than the work itself. The method of transmission is an integral aspect of a meme, but should not be confused with the meme itself.

[increpare]

You're focussing too much on the method of transmission, when what's relevant is the fact that it's transmitted. If the meme relates to a physical artifact, then you can state unequivocally that the artifact itself is not transmitted.

No, but it is duplicated (possibly slights changed in the process) by photographs, replicas, descriptions, all of these things.  It is reproduced by the million.

Hence, the meme itself is purely psychological.

To reiterate what I've said before, your usage of the word 'meme', while maybe running parallel to the common one, is very much different in its exclusion of physical objects. 

[Don Andy]

I failed

[increpare]

I failed

Erm, nope you succeeded admirably at your 'likely futile attempt'  :D

I perfectly willing to shake hands with KingAl, consider this issue moot, and contribute to the discussion about monocles qua monocles (as opposed to monocles qua memes) in earnest