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[TeeGee]

Basically what Dragonmaw said. I think the only difference is that I lack the patience to get through that early game slog.

really? i can kill these guys easily without pulling every single one of them. and this game actually does group battles pretty well with the combat changes i think. maybe part of your problem is that youre trying to play it too much like the old souls games?

I don't pull every single one. I actually try to get as many of them as possible with axe's charged sweep. But this is where it becomes apparent it's still a Souls game and group combat is weak -- I get some dudes, some others don't seem to be caught in the hit box, and the rest simply ignores the fact I just slaughtered their friends and proceeds to walk away, making me repeat the process. And once they get to the plaza, there are dogs and shooters, so pulling becomes a necessity for a level 5 character.

One other thing I noticed -- I was okay with bad AI when enemies were all mindless "hollows". Lore nicely excused their stupidity. But now that they are some angry mob/hunters (who I can hear talking to each other) and werewolves, I immediately expect more realistic behavior.

[s0]

i enjoy the trial-by-fire nature of Souls games, but I'm not keen on gating very basic functionality behind multiple hours of newbie play. it's a very bad design decision.

make gems and runes a later-game thing, whatever, but leveling and weapon reinforcement should be available the moment you step foot into the Hunter's Dream imo. they are so crucial and essential to doing well along the game's standard path that hiding them is just a dick move. i think dark souls did this the best (making estus/leveling/etc available at all bonfires, but gating weapon reinforcement, the "late game" feature)

also bring back estus

i actually think unlocking runes and gems so late is much more annoying than the leveling up lock (im very very glad they stay unlocked in ng+ btw). i mean you get to level up as soon as you get to the first really difficult challenge. seems fair enough to me.

[TeeGee]

Grinding and leveling up in the Souls games turns your character into a running lawn mower mindlessly cutting down most enemies (summoning friends takes care of the rest).

ok but you cant really beat bosses through sheer grinding unless you invest A LOT of time and massively overlevel yourself, time that would be better spent GITTING GUD or using co-op which is basically babby mode anyway.

I got completely over-leveled in Dark Souls without any grinding or time investment. Simply played some PVP in the forest and didn't shy away from getting invaded. A few victories were enough to boost my level to the point where I was able to trade hits with bosses and come out on top. Leveling was way too powerful in that game. I think because every upgrade also increased defense values, so you became quite tanky regardless of the build.


Also, you guys made me give it one more try. Got through the same plaza again. Watched for the same dogs. Lost at the same bridge as always. 1 minute loading time. Yay, it's plaza again! SUCH A GOOD GAMING EXPERIENCE.  

[JWK5]

ok but you cant really beat bosses through sheer grinding unless you invest A LOT of time and massively overlevel yourself, time that would be better spent GITTING GUD or using co-op which is basically babby mode anyway.

I beg to differ on the co-op, co-op is great once you crank up the bonfires (especially to +4 and above), and it gets even better when played with people you can actually coordinate with (my wife and I play on 2 PS3s on 2 side-by-side TVs).

Once you've played the game enough solo the tension loosens its grip on you and the game doesn't have the same impact. I never bothered summoning people in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, but in Dark Souls 2 towards the late game my wife and I decided to give the summoning a try and it actually refreshed the game for me.

We have a few people we have run with us now and again that we've developed a system of communication through in-game body language (using the gestures and movements) and the talking stones. The game gets a lot more tactical and strategic, and it creates a new tension that is missing from solo play where you are trying to keep others alive, not just your character. It leads to interesting strategy setups like shield-walling against ranged attackers (one person holds a shield up in front of the other, the AI will always target the front person, and the person behind them fires off arrows or spells) and melee attackers (two people hold up shields side-by-side, which prevents frontal and swiping attacks, while the ranged player fires from a few paces back to avoid swipes).

I'd like to see From set up a Souls game that focuses on co-op right from the beginning and emphasizes group survival.

I got completely over-leveled in Dark Souls without any grinding or time investment. Simply played some PVP in the forest and didn't shy away from getting invaded. A few victories were enough to boost my level to the point where I was able to trade hits with bosses and come out on top. Leveling was way too powerful in that game. I think because every upgrade also increased defense values, so you became quite tanky regardless of the build.

Pretty much what happened to me and my wife, except we built up primarily in the Belfry Luna mopping up invaders. Also, depending on where you put your soul levels you can easily overpower enemies without intending to. I put a ton of points into dexterity and was carving my way through a good chunk of the game with just a well-upgraded spear.

[s0]

Also, you guys made me give it one more try. Got through the same plaza again. Watched for the same dogs. Lost at the same bridge as always. 1 minute loading time. Yay, it's plaza again! SUCH A GOOD GAMING EXPERIENCE.

psst theres an alternate path on the second plaza with the brick giant and the crows. its near the window with the laughing women behind it. i THINK (cant check right now) you can skip the werewolves completely if you take that path.

ohh also you can run into a house from the bridge and cheese the 2 werewolves through the doorway if you take the "main" path

[TeeGee]

I know, I actually checked the walkthrough . But I want to get those damn werewolves! (OMG, this is basically Abusive Relationship: The Game!  )

EDIT: Also, is it me, or is your corpse hard to collect in this game? Most of the time I can't even see it and have to search the ground until button prompt appears.

[s0]

yeah your bloodstain is unfortunately pretty hard to see, esp in more heavily lit areas (such as central yharnam during dusk). im actually glad when an enemy gets my blood echoes because its much easier to see an enemy with glowing eyes than a faint pink glow on the ground lol

[DJFloppyFish]

I feel like I've had my bloodstain straight up disappear on me. Either that, or I just couldn't see it.

Regarding grinding, I'm not sure how it should be handled. On one hand, its cool that people can use it to adjust the game's difficulty when they need to. On the other, it breaks the fucking game. I've often wondered if it would be better if only bosses dropped souls. Then "grinding" would simply be killing the optional bosses/minibosses in an area. DeS kinda did that. It would certainly be easier to account for than the endless amount of tedious grinding a player could currently do by killing basic mobs.

[s0]

DeS kinda did that

hm?

i don't mind the optional grinding in the souls games. i never grind and get through all the games just fine.

[s0]

I feel like I've had my bloodstain straight up disappear on me. Either that, or I just couldn't see it.

welp wandering enemies can pick up your bloodstain so if an enemy with a long patrol route gets it your blood echoes could end up very far from where you died.

[DJFloppyFish]

DeS kinda did that

hm?

i don't mind the optional grinding in the souls games. i never grind and get through all the games just fine.

I mean that like in boletarian palace, it's basically impossible to grind cause everything drops so few souls.

I never grind either, they always give the exact amount of souls you need to take on the next thing. but it still sucks that people can basically ruin the game for themselves. but i guess for some people, thats the appeal??

[JWK5]

An easy fix would be scaling boss rewards.

What they could do with future Souls games is make it so that beating a boss at soul level X gives you one reward, and beating it at a lower soul level of Y gives you an even better reward, and beating it on a lower soul level of Z gives you the best reward. In this manner, players can scale their own challenge. They can stick to what is manageable for them but take a lesser reward as the price for moving forward or they can try and tough it out for the better reward. Dark Souls 2 kind of did this in that if you up a boss bonfire to +1 or higher (through NG+ or a bonfire ascetic) most bosses will drop an exclusive second soul that you can trade for unique equipment and spells.

What would aid this, and something I've wanted for particularly multiplayer purposes, is a means to de-level yourself by a chosen amount of soul levels. There's really no good reason why you shouldn't be able to do that. If not just that, I could even see soul levels being used as a sort of currency, maybe replacing bonfire ascetics (that is, spend 10 soul levels to raise a bonfire to +1, +2, +3, etc. or something) reinforcing the power-for-challenge trade and allowing you to scale your challenge at virtually any point in the game.

[s0]

but why does it need a fix? leveling is completely optional in these games.

I never grind either, they always give the exact amount of souls you need to take on the next thing. but it still sucks that people can basically ruin the game for themselves. but i guess for some people, thats the appeal??

i have literally never overleveled myself in any souls game. if i do have a problem with levels its usually rushing and being underleveled. but then i hardly ever pvp at all so

[JWK5]

but why does it need a fix?

Part of the reason you ask that question is because:

but then i hardly ever pvp at all so

From was apparently aware of the problem because in Dark Souls 2 they included a ring that basically absorbs souls in place of your character so you do not increase your souls, especially when joining others games.

I am not sure if it also stops the growth of your soul memory, which if too high or too low can make it difficult to summon other players. The whole point of soul memory seems to be to basically match up players with relatively the same playing experience but really it just makes things more difficult.

leveling is completely optional in these games.

Which is why de-leveling should be as well.

[s0]

From was apparently aware of the problem because in Dark Souls 2 they included a ring that basically absorbs souls in place of your character so you do not increase your souls, especially when joining others games.

they patched that ring in very late to make soul memory (which doesnt exist in the other souls games) less terrible.

why would getting too many souls in pvp be a problem otherwise? you could just not use them if you don't want to overlevel yourself.

Which is why de-leveling should be as well.

and make twink invaders an even bigger problem than they already are?

btw this is literally the first time ive ever heard about overleveling supposedly being a problem in souls. the common complaint is that it's too hard to make the game easier, not harder. but ok, i trust you guys.

[FrankieSmileShow]

About your souls bloodstain disappearing... If you quit the game while you have a bloodstain out there, your bloodstain is gone when you come back. Its not intended, its an actual bug: the bloodstain apparently re-appears in a different area, the mensis lecture building. You cant really go there if you are in the early game, but a section of it is accessible about one third into it. I *think* that the bloodstain appears within that early-accessible section. They'll probably fix that bug tho. Until then, get your bloodstain before turning the game off.

[s0]

just tested this and yep, it's true. wat a hell. did they seriously not catch this bug during testing?

a patch is apparently coming out friday btw.

[DJFloppyFish]

re: overleveling. back when i needed to overlevel, i still got my ass kicked by bosses. im sure now that im better at the games id notice a big difference though.

i hope the load times are noticeably better.

[Dragonmaw]

overleveling is dum but leveling has a noticeable improvement on both your survivability and damage output, and BB is the most "designed around leveling" game in the souls series so far imo

[s0]

i guess by overleveling i meant getting to the point where you can basically win on stats alone and can play as sloppy as you want because it doesn't matter. i never got to that point in any souls game (other than, like, returning to an early game area with a late game character or sth), hence my bewilderment.