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[Noyb]

I see it as the AMV (anime music video) effect. There are a whole bunch of absolutely terrible AMVs on youtube. Now, I know there are some great ones, but the style itself -- matching someone else's video to someone else's audio -- attracts the lazy. Similarly, by marketing to people who don't know how to code, game making applications attract a larger userbase of game makers that are satisfied with the basic, generic functionality of the program. As we have seen time and time again, there are amazing games coming out of Multimedia Fusion, Game Maker, and RPG Maker users, but since there are so many mediocre, standard efforts it taints their reputations.

[Moosader]

I see it as the AMV (anime music video) effect. There are a whole bunch of absolutely terrible AMVs on youtube. Now, I know there are some great ones, but the style itself -- matching someone else's video to someone else's audio -- attracts the lazy. Similarly, by marketing to people who don't know how to code, game making applications attract a larger userbase of game makers that are satisfied with the basic, generic functionality of the program. As we have seen time and time again, there are amazing games coming out of Multimedia Fusion, Game Maker, and RPG Maker users, but since there are so many mediocre, standard efforts it taints their reputations.

I totally agree.

As far as RPG Maker goes, any RM '95, '00, or '03 games I've played have generally been super-poor-quality, but I don't go scavenging for games made with them very much.
Game Maker, Dark Basic, MMF, and some other things have been used to make really good looking and good playing games. (I'm not familiar with RPG Maker XP games at all, I didn't know it had scripting).

I think it's great that it allows designers who aren't that interested in programming are able to create great games with these things.

[Melly]

I see it as the AMV (anime music video) effect. There are a whole bunch of absolutely terrible AMVs on youtube. Now, I know there are some great ones, but the style itself -- matching someone else's video to someone else's audio -- attracts the lazy. Similarly, by marketing to people who don't know how to code, game making applications attract a larger userbase of game makers that are satisfied with the basic, generic functionality of the program. As we have seen time and time again, there are amazing games coming out of Multimedia Fusion, Game Maker, and RPG Maker users, but since there are so many mediocre, standard efforts it taints their reputations.

That's actually one of the best aspects of such programs. They attract a lot of non-coders who would otherwise never be able to make a game due to lack of time/will to learn a whole language. While most make crap games, there are some people out there with awesome ideas who would have never made them otherwise.

[scubacoaster]

Aight, gettin me all up and started on RPGmaker huh? I really don't think it's possible to output a good game on the RPGmaker system and if it is I really haven't seen it. The only promising game ever made with RM decided to scrap the whole thing and reprogram itself ENTIRELY on GM because of the limitations of the RM system. It's almost the equivelent of loading up the program and clicking a "CREATE GAME BUTTON." There are plenty of really powerful makers out there like MMF, AGS, GM etc that although having their limitations aren't restricted to the level that RM restricts you.

You want to make something with the quality of this game http://dreamseol.blogspot.com/, and I can tell you right now you wont be able to do that with RM. It wont support the isometric style and it wont really transfer ANY kind of effects that you would want to pull off well either (like water) because it pretty much has TWO FRAME ANIMATION in tilesets kind of thing.

A lot of people suggested that it's not a case of the maker being BAD but a case of there just being too many bad and mediocre games and I can also tell you that's not true either. EVERY SINGLE LAST RM game ever put out looks exactly the same, If you've never heard of "Wilfred the Hero" you should check it out, it's an RM game with fantastic visual style and it still feels like an RM game. Because they ALL control the same, they all LOOK the same and they all have the same gameplay systems unless you spend hours at a time coding custom systems which RPGmaker is not designed for so you can never do so in a good way. Most RM games require you to have RM installed on your system to play them and if you don't then they need to have the entire RTP loaded into the game adding an extra couple of 100MB to your game if I recall correctly (it's been a long time) and really the system has just never really put out anything of merit because it promotes games with ripped FF6 graphics, stolen FF6 music and it's a maker for lazy people who just want to say they made an RPG in their weekend off. If you are serious about game making I advise you not to touch this program.

Now that RPGmaker is out the way GM has some serious credibility for being able to output good games. The same for MMF2, so I don't have a qualm with "makers" it's just RM itself.

[Alec]

In the latest RPGMaker it seemed pretty easy to change the battle system with the ruby scripts.

Then again, if you're doing that, I'm not sure how much of an advantage you're getting out of using RPGMaker. (since visually your freedom is pretty restricted by certain graphics limits)

[scubacoaster]

In the latest RPGMaker it seemed pretty easy to change the battle system with the ruby scripts.

Then again, if you're doing that, I'm not sure how much of an advantage you're getting out of using RPGMaker. (since visually your freedom is pretty restricted by certain graphics limits)

But if you're going to learn a scripting language for a maker why RPGmaker? The most linear maker ever created. Or if you knew the language already why do you even need RPGmaker?

[deadeye]

A lot of people suggested that it's not a case of the maker being BAD but a case of there just being too many bad and mediocre games and I can also tell you that's not true either...

wait three seconds

...it promotes games with ripped FF6 graphics, stolen FF6 music and it's a maker for lazy people who just want to say they made an RPG in their weekend off. If you are serious about game making I advise you not to touch this program.

Um... so is it user base or no?

But if you're going to learn a scripting language for a maker why RPGmaker? The most linear maker ever created. Or if you knew the language already why do you even need RPGmaker?

For the same reason people stick with other game dev programs... they're used to the environment.  If someone starts off with RPGMaker to make simple crap, then decides to learn Ruby to expand their capabilities, what's wrong with sticking with RPGMaker?

[Melly]

Aight, gettin me all up and started on RPGmaker huh? I really don't think it's possible to output a good game on the RPGmaker system and if it is I really haven't seen it. The only promising game ever made with RM decided to scrap the whole thing and reprogram itself ENTIRELY on GM because of the limitations of the RM system. It's almost the equivelent of loading up the program and clicking a "CREATE GAME BUTTON." There are plenty of really powerful makers out there like MMF, AGS, GM etc that although having their limitations aren't restricted to the level that RM restricts you.

You want to make something with the quality of this game http://dreamseol.blogspot.com/, and I can tell you right now you wont be able to do that with RM. It wont support the isometric style and it wont really transfer ANY kind of effects that you would want to pull off well either (like water) because it pretty much has TWO FRAME ANIMATION in tilesets kind of thing.

A lot of people suggested that it's not a case of the maker being BAD but a case of there just being too many bad and mediocre games and I can also tell you that's not true either. EVERY SINGLE LAST RM game ever put out looks exactly the same, If you've never heard of "Wilfred the Hero" you should check it out, it's an RM game with fantastic visual style and it still feels like an RM game. Because they ALL control the same, they all LOOK the same and they all have the same gameplay systems unless you spend hours at a time coding custom systems which RPGmaker is not designed for so you can never do so in a good way. Most RM games require you to have RM installed on your system to play them and if you don't then they need to have the entire RTP loaded into the game adding an extra couple of 100MB to your game if I recall correctly (it's been a long time) and really the system has just never really put out anything of merit because it promotes games with ripped FF6 graphics, stolen FF6 music and it's a maker for lazy people who just want to say they made an RPG in their weekend off. If you are serious about game making I advise you not to touch this program.

Now that RPGmaker is out the way GM has some serious credibility for being able to output good games. The same for MMF2, so I don't have a qualm with "makers" it's just RM itself.

Well now you and RM seem to have a 'history'.

But have you actually tried the latest version of the program? You don't really seem to know much more about it than what you knew when you tried using it all that way back. Even if the program is shit or restrictive you might wanna actually experiment a bit with its latest version (or read detailed information about its capabilities, at least) before spewing fire all over the forums.

It would be appreciated if you kept it a calm discussion and left the ranting to another place.

[scubacoaster]

Holy Cow!

deadeye, it's a mixture of userbase and the program itself. My last experience of RM was with Rm2k3 so no I don't know about Ruby scripting and shit that's just speculation from the previous builds. But the program itself is restricting in the sense that you can't break from the tiny graphical restrictions and coding restrictions the program gives you.

I'm not trying to rant and spew fire but I really do think it's a terrible program and I wouldn't want to go back to using it at any point, and it's been a long time since I've seen a good game put out with it. Finally the good games that were put out with it were completely sub-par in comparison to games created with other makers.

Even after all this, it's just my opinion so I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from using it by claiming that any other specific maker is better, only that in my opinion RPG Maker is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to creating games.

[Alec]

In the latest RPGMaker it seemed pretty easy to change the battle system with the ruby scripts.

Then again, if you're doing that, I'm not sure how much of an advantage you're getting out of using RPGMaker. (since visually your freedom is pretty restricted by certain graphics limits)

But if you're going to learn a scripting language for a maker why RPGmaker? The most linear maker ever created. Or if you knew the language already why do you even need RPGmaker?

You can't make graphical games with straight Ruby. Also, Ruby is one of the easier languages to learn.

But I think ultimately it would be more valuable to start your own engine or find a dedicated programmer to build one for you. The game will be more unique as a result.

[mechacrash]

dam people... noone is getting this... that website i posted... guess what... hes a mate of mine and hes using... no way... RPGMAKER???

dude... ive coded an isometric system before and i can tell you RMXP has very little limits when you get to coding... seriously the games outputted so far are pure statements of laziness in RMXP gaming and every now and again a decent game comes along such as the one i posted... even aveyond sucks compared to the quality of some.

RMXP and RMVX (RMVX is the enw one but its really crap because of its lag, crap resolution code and stupid mapping system) use a script called ruby or RGSS (ruby game scripting syntax). It is a real lfie code unlike GML and it has very few limitations. If you know how to use it you can make wonders... thankfully i DO know how to use it. Stop flaming the topic with how bad RMXP is when your getting it from bad reputation.

Everything has its gem and every now and again RMXP shows its own with the amazing quality of games produced... i aim to be one of those games thanks to my team of designers fully customising the music and graphics so theres complete originality... i am completely rebuilding the scripts from scratch aswell... ive spent the  last 3 weeks working on the dam startup for christ sake and so far... it looks really professional.

When i release the public engine test you'll see for yourself how good some systems can be... and all ive done is build the title screen, startup and options menu!

[Melly]

dam people... noone is getting this... that website i posted... guess what... hes a mate of mine and hes using... no way... RPGMAKER???

dude... ive coded an isometric system before and i can tell you RMXP has very little limits when you get to coding... seriously the games outputted so far are pure statements of laziness in RMXP gaming and every now and again a decent game comes along such as the one i posted... even aveyond sucks compared to the quality of some.

RMXP and RMVX (RMVX is the enw one but its really crap because of its lag, crap resolution code and stupid mapping system) use a script called ruby or RGSS (ruby game scripting syntax). It is a real lfie code unlike GML and it has very few limitations. If you know how to use it you can make wonders... thankfully i DO know how to use it. Stop flaming the topic with how bad RMXP is when your getting it from bad reputation.

Everything has its gem and every now and again RMXP shows its own with the amazing quality of games produced... i aim to be one of those games thanks to my team of designers fully customising the music and graphics so theres complete originality... i am completely rebuilding the scripts from scratch aswell... ive spent the  last 3 weeks working on the dam startup for christ sake and so far... it looks really professional.

When i release the public engine test you'll see for yourself how good some systems can be... and all ive done is build the title screen, startup and options menu!

Proper punctuation please.

And that sounds interesting. Let us know when you do.

[Zaphos]

I think that people in general will evaluate the end result and not care so much about the specific tools used, so if you can get great stuff out of something, then great, use it.

But clearly tools do have their strengths and weaknesses, and at a certain point you may end up doing so much work to overcome an engine's weaknesses that you're not getting any net benefit from it over just writing code from scratch.  So it's good to keep a critical eye to your tools and to recognize the point where you're fighting with the tool to push it beyond what it's meant for, where you could be faster and better by switching to something new.

[Stij]

I see it as the AMV (anime music video) effect. There are a whole bunch of absolutely terrible AMVs on youtube. Now, I know there are some great ones, but the style itself -- matching someone else's video to someone else's audio -- attracts the lazy. Similarly, by marketing to people who don't know how to code, game making applications attract a larger userbase of game makers that are satisfied with the basic, generic functionality of the program. As we have seen time and time again, there are amazing games coming out of Multimedia Fusion, Game Maker, and RPG Maker users, but since there are so many mediocre, standard efforts it taints their reputations.

^This man knows his stuff.

Examples of good, unique games made in GM: An Untitled Story, FLaiL (I think), Charles Barkely: Shut up and Jam Gaiden, Death Worm, anything by cactus. :D

[december]

Proper punctuation please.

And that sounds interesting. Let us know when you do.

This is how you squander your Angel Post?  A least ask for links, man!

[Chris Whitman]

...

Whenever someone overuses ellipses, I like to imagine the post as performed by William Shatner.

[deadeye]

Great... now you've gone and... got that idea stuck... in my head and I'll be... doing it too!  KHAAAAAAAN!

[Melly]

It is a real lfie code unlike GML

What stops GML from being a 'real life code'?

GML exists in another plane of being. I believe it's ruled by a unicorn master race of some sort. Game Maker is actually a crude portal to this dimension. I also believe Cactus is close to finding the key to it.

[Chris Whitman]

GML exists in another plane of being. I believe it's ruled by a unicorn master race of some sort. Game Maker is actually a crude portal to this dimension. I also believe Cactus is close to finding the key to it.

He has an unfair advantage in that unicorns are secretly weak against Swedes.

[angrygeometry]

there have only been two really good rpg maker games: the way and barkley, which was transfered to Game Maker eventually.

i guess it's because most RPG Maker games always end up the same. plus it's so simple to make a game in it that not many people take notice, even if your story is a++.