Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1411709 Posts in 69403 Topics- by 58457 Members - Latest Member: FezzikTheGiant

May 20, 2024, 04:36:33 PM

Need hosting? Check out Digital Ocean
(more details in this thread)
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralResearch Request
Pages: [1] 2 3
Print
Author Topic: Research Request  (Read 10337 times)
Felan
Level 0
**


View Profile
« on: September 07, 2007, 10:42:54 AM »

Hi there, my name's Felan. I'm a Pix Fu/Derek Yu stalwart and a longtime TIGSource reader. I used to post on the old forum but life caught up to me.

So, I've just begun my Master's in Film Studies at Carleton University, and I'm doing a directed reading/independent study on the thrlling topic of video games and video game studies.

A significant portion of my proposed project is about the rules and rule sets which gamers impose upon themselves. This is sometimes considered a facet of "emergent gameplay." Some examples include Jeep Jumping in Halo, playing a specific alignment in a role-playing game which does not enforce alignment behaviour, speed runs, River City Ransom baseball and Cat and Mouse in certain racing games.

Let me stress that I'm not talking about creative solutions to in-game problems, nor am I talking about modding. I'm interested in rulesets which exist only in the minds of the players, implemented entirely within the game. Any instance in which the player imposes his or her own rules onto the game and onto themselves.


An example from my own experience is Halo Jeep Tag. The players start with a basic Tag-style multiplayer match, with vehicles enabled and all rocket launchers, and the extra rules go like this:

- The player who is "it" must be in a jeep, and can only kill people (and thus score points) by running over the other players.
- The other players, equipped with rocket launchers and frag grenades (sticky plasma grenades are not allowed) must try to stay alive and kill the player who is "it."
- If the "it" player is ejected from his jeep and survives, nobody is allowed to shoot him until he re-enters the jeep and two seconds have passed (in order to give him a fair head start).



What other examples have you guys seen or experienced? You will obviously get credit for your contribution if this paper goes as planned. (Also, if this got a mainpage nod, I'd be much obliged. Tongue)
Logged
the_dannobot
Level 2
**


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2007, 10:53:33 AM »

There was a thing in Jedi Knight: Dark Forces 2 online matches, where the players would always turn off their lightsabers and bow to each other before each match.
Logged

Dannobot on Twitter
ChrisFranklin
Level 1
*



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2007, 11:11:27 AM »

There's the usual stuff - playing through Deus Ex without killing anyone (or at least, as few people as possible), trying to play through Super Metroid with the smallest percentage of items possible, "knife fights" in Counterstrike...

Hell, even a simple speed run involves the player creating his or her own addition to the rules as "time played" is not traditionally seen as a score for most of the games that get sped through, but they change the rules to make it so.  "Beating" Super Metroid with a speed run is no longer a boolean "have I beaten it yet or not?" but rather a "How quickly can I beat it?"  That's a pretty fundamental shift in the way the system is interpreted.

Unfortunately it's a relatively rare thing in multiplayer games because it's so damned hard to get an entire server operating under the same rule set.  The second you and I get on board a Battlefield server and try racing jeeps around, we're going to get shot at by other players. 

The most awesome thing about this stuff is that it shows players (and their internalizations of the systems we design) are inherently a part of those systems.  We can't forget that players aren't necessarily abstract things that just come in and "play" our games, they're as much a part of our systems as anything we put into it.
Logged
Akhel
Level 10
*****



View Profile
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2007, 11:20:57 AM »

Well, I know many members of the Elder Scrolls community enjoy roleplaying their characters in Morrowind and Oblivion. Some actually take it very seriously, spending hours decorating their character's house(s), pretending (or actually doing it, with the help of some mods) they're eating, and even creating actual routines for their virtual selves.
Logged
Felan
Level 0
**


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2007, 11:24:14 AM »

The most awesome thing about this stuff is that it shows players (and their internalizations of the systems we design) are inherently a part of those systems.  We can't forget that players aren't necessarily abstract things that just come in and "play" our games, they're as much a part of our systems as anything we put into it.

Absolutely right, and in a way that's the ultimate angle of my project: sort of a valorization of video games as a [mass] art which creates meaningful and significant aesthetic experiences.

Multiplayer examples tend to exist more in context of real-world presence (LAN parties, console split-screen) but as you say, knife/pistol/shock paddle-only servers do engage in the same sort of rule-making. Even "no-swearing" servers change the experience.

The Oblivion/Morrowind example is valid only when the player is imposing limitations (all rules are, after all, limitations) on what his character can do, but it's also a good point.
Logged
Tr00jg
Guest
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2007, 12:23:04 PM »

This is very intriguing! Lots of these things happen in MMO's (or perhaps thats because I played it a lot. Tongue). Most "emergent gameplay" in MMO's spawn from superstition, which is in turn caused by the random nature of drops.

The most intriguing example is the Diplomacy Treasure Chest example in Dungeons and Dragons Online. Others include "world" races. ie run from spot A, to spot B (the fastest). On certain Role-playing realms in World of Warcraft, they even created a separate game with a leatherball. 0_o

I would love to hear how your research turns out.
Logged
Average Higgins
Level 1
*


Huh? What?


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2007, 03:13:16 PM »

...River City Ransom baseball...
Holy shit, how come I've never heard of this? What is it?

Also, to actually try to help you, my friends and I often play with self-imposed rules in Super Smash Bros Melee. In fact, the instruction booklet for that game actually suggests you should make up your own games and even includes a couple examples.
For instance, a shoot-out game where you play with the HP-health option and only use characters, items, and attacks which are ranged. So everyone plays as like Fox, Samus, and Ness and we shoot around at each other until only one person has HP left.
Logged
Felan
Level 0
**


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2007, 04:01:03 PM »

Tr00jg, could you elaborate on the Diplomacy Treasure Chest example you mentioned? Leatherball is another very good example, though, I'd forgotten about that one.

As for River City Ransom baseball, it works like this. One player picks up the bat or just a stick) and the other player picks up the baseball (or just a rock). You find a secluded area, and one player pitches the ball at the other player, who tries to hit it back before it cracks him in the face. Bonus points if the batter manages to hit the pitcher with the ball and/or rock. If you wanted to get really fancy, you could have the batter run "bases" across a level while the other player tries to nail him with the ball. Tongue
Logged
Derek
Bastich
Administrator
Level 10
******



View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2007, 04:47:13 PM »

Hey, Felan!  Good to see you. Wink

I think the term you're looking for is "metagaming," but I could be wrong.

One of the most obvious ways to metagame is to limit yourself in ways that the game does not enforce.

The so-called "ironman" challenges in Roguelikes are a good example of this.  In Angband, the ironman challenge means you can't go up stairs once you've entered the dungeon.  In Nethack I know people try to play "vegan" games, where they don't eat any meat.

Beating Zelda 1 without picking up the wooden sword in the first cave is another example.

One personal metagame that I play is in Street Fighter III, when I try to win matches by hitting people with a rose (Dudley's taunt) or a basketball (Sean's taunt).  Good for a laugh, especially when your opponent realizes what you're trying to do. Tongue

Anyway, interesting topic.  I'll consider frontpaging it if it really gets going. Smiley
Logged
AdamAtomic
*BARF*
Level 9
*


hostess w/ the mostest


View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2007, 05:27:18 PM »

I like beating the first stage of Streets of Rage 2 using only one specific move - Alex's backhand or headbutt, for example.  Hilarity ensues!

Super Smash Bros. is chock full of metagames, though the game is constructed to encourage that sort of thing.  My favorite is "edge chasing" or some other similar variant, where a perfectly healthy victor chases the "definitely going to die anyways" loser off the edge in order to get one more brutal down-smash in before you both fall off the screen.

Or rocket racing, where a massive explosion kills everyone on-screen, and its basically just a matter of luck deciding who leaves the screen last, thus becoming the level winner.

I think the challenge is really to find anyone who plays any game WITHOUT applying any of their own little rules or challenges.  How long can I go without using THIS special move?  etc etc.
Logged

cup full of magic charisma
Felan
Level 0
**


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2007, 08:55:17 PM »

I think the term you're looking for is "metagaming," but I could be wrong.

One of the most obvious ways to metagame is to limit yourself in ways that the game does not enforce.

Metagaming is actually a term I'm deliberately avoiding, because much like "emergent gameplay" it's just too broad, and includes a wide variety of diverse concepts. What I'm talking about is exactly as you put it, those ways in which gamers limit themselves outside of the enforced rules of the game. I tend to refer to these(at this stage, at least) as imposed rules/rulesets.

Atomic, the Smash Bros. edge game is borderline, because it's not really adding any new limitations to the game, nor is it formalized in any significant way. Certainly it's an example of emergent play/metagaming, but that's case in point why I'm avoiding those specific words. The rocket race could be a good example, though.

You're absolutely right, however, in saying that all gamers do this in just about any game, and that's an important point I'm trying to make. There's more to my research than just compiling ways in which this occurs- I'm just at that early stage right now. Wink It's very important to my thesis that average gamers do this, not only eccentric ones.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 08:57:59 PM by Felan » Logged
Tr00jg
Guest
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2007, 01:44:25 AM »

It was based off superstition in Dungeons and Dragons Online that if you had a higher Diplomacy skill you would get better loot when opening a treasure chest. It got so bad, that people were not even invited to a party because of their low (or non-existant) diplomacy skill.

The developers claimed that diplomacy had nothing to do with getting better loot when opening a chest... I dont know how the situation currently is though.

http://www.playmmo.com/mmoworld-details.php?id_article=394

Im not entirely sure if this fits your "idea".
Logged
Chris Whitman
Sepia Toned
Level 10
*****


A master of karate and friendship for everyone.


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2007, 01:53:03 AM »

I don't think confirmation bias is a self-imposed rule.
Logged

Formerly "I Like Cake."
Tr00jg
Guest
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2007, 01:58:38 AM »

I don't think confirmation bias is a self-imposed rule.

That's what I was thinking... Oh well. It is still intriguing though.
Logged
Xander
TIGSource Editor
Level 1
******



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2007, 06:22:02 AM »

Well this is definitely too much fun to ignore. I think the erliest example I can think of is probably playing Goldeneye on the N64. Me and my brothers used to play a game called 'Get the Bastard'. One person was Oddjob because he was literally half the size of everyone else, and he was given a massive life-bar, where as everyone else was playing per-normal as regular characters. Oddjob couldn't use guns and was limited to just the hand-to-hand attacks and sometimes throwing knives too. It then became 2/3 against 1, with the team trying to hunt down Oddjob before the sneaky bastard beat you from behind or threw a knife at your face. Haha.. good times.

It was unintentionally upped in Perfect Dark, with Elvis the alien being just as damn small, but now with the new effect that being attack physically meant the screen would blur massively. This game the Bastard the new power of being able to sneak up to people unawares before beating the guns out of their hands and smacking them unconcious without them being able to fight back. I can't really think of much else just now, the creation of Mods sort of killed a lot of experimentation in that regard. Undoubtedly the console gamers are much more likely to invent their own rule-sets, I guess out of neccesity more than anything else. One thing that I do still do though is in regards to 2D-Shoot 'em ups like Mountain of Faith or Perfect Cherry Blossom, where I won't continue after my first death, I used to do that at the arcades too. It's maybe more about trying to go back and hone my skills on the basics, because if I don't get that down right then trying to carry on from where I died first will just mean I'll die again and much sooner.

It's a damn interesting project, and I'd love to keep up with it's progression. I'm actually a Film Student in England myself, about to start my second year, so it's very interesting getting to see the kind of work involved in the Masters section. Sounds like awesome stuff!
Logged
Felan
Level 0
**


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2007, 06:59:48 AM »

Yes, there's a lot of space in Film Studies for all kinds of media criticism, and usually Film departments have good inter-disciplinary relationships. What school are you studying film at? I also got into the universities of Cambridge, Nottingham, Sussex and East Anglia for my MA, but the fees for foreign students are just exorbitant, and I couldn't afford it.
Logged
Tr00jg
Guest
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2007, 07:42:07 AM »

Sorry, I keep thinking of possible examples that might fit.

In Savage (a multiplayer RTS/3rd person mix), there is about 1-5 min before the match starts. In this short time, all you do is try to own your team-mates. I know its not a complicated ruleset, but this is not really apart of the game's official rules.

GTA is also a ripe playground for "emergent gameplay". These include the obvious like  using only a machine gun and seeing how long you can last before the police owns you.

In City of Heroes, I also occasionally flew to the top of huge buildings. I jumped and then tried to see how close to the ground I can fall, before opening my jetpack.

Then there is also more Role-Playing examples in World of Warcraft that I experienced. The realm set a date where members of each faction would meet for a war (say Hillsbrad). Loads of people lined up, and fought. The biggest rule was that you werent allowed to resurrect yourself as it was a "real" war.

Okay... I talked too much.
Logged
Xander
TIGSource Editor
Level 1
******



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2007, 08:02:06 AM »

Yeah, tuition fees are rediculous for us anyway, but for international students it's insane. But damn, Cambridge? I think I suddenly feel even more intimidated, haha! I'm studying at UWE in Bristol at the moment, which is a blast, though I apparently have nowhere to live yet since they haven't finished building my accomodation so I'm stuck at home a little longer. Perfect for being an Editor here though (and Valkyrie Profile 2 just came out!), but I'm starting to get that craving now. I do like how the course seems to inter-twine with a lot of other fields, one of my modules this year is about 'Screens in Digital Media', and as I understand it is mostly about how we interact with screens constantly on a daily basis, with TV, Film, Games, Mobiles, Train Times and damn near everything else as it turns out. It's going to be a good year!

I liked the Pre-Round Savaging, it's a nice way to just work all the mindless violence out of your system before getting back to logically thinking about the battle ahead. Savage was a good game, but a little limited in the end. Also way too many people just ran around beating mobs in the face with axes. No doubt though that being a 20ft beast with a tree as a weapon was just awesome.
Logged
ravuya
Level 7
**


Yip yip yip yip yip


View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2007, 08:08:59 AM »

I think we metagamed Goldeneye more than any other game in history; we had border runs on the "bunker" level (run past two angry players into the door that leads outside), for instance.
Logged

Nate Kling
Pixelhead
Level 9
******


Caliber9


View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2007, 12:47:37 PM »

me and my friends used to go rock climbing in halo 1 and 2.  We would play multiplayer and try to climb into area's where you weren't supposed to be.  We would stack ourselves up and there was also some glitch by switching weapons that could give you an extra boost when you jumped I think.  It was more fun fun than the real game.  Gary's mod is a mod of half life that is built for this.  Me and my friends have done tons of stuff in there like building our own cars and jumping gaps or just working together to build flying pieces of junk.
Logged

Pages: [1] 2 3
Print
Jump to:  

Theme orange-lt created by panic