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[Ishmael]

Note this is not a recruitment topic, just something I'm considering and I was wondering if anyone had any experiences to share.

I'm working on the plot and backstory/world building for my game and I'd really like some help. This could be quite an open ended project, I'm still judging the viability of what I want to do and I'm mainly just hoping for some creative input and for help fleshing things out into a more production ready form.

Stuff I'd be interested in:

-Where did you find the person who hired?
-Were you mainly looking for someone to write up existing ideas or propose new ones?
-How did you structure the compensation, was it per word, per document, per hour?
-Was it difficult to deal with the legal issues and making sure you own the rights to the work?
-How did it go in general?

Thanks for any advice.

[SundownKid]

I'm a writer myself, so I can't speak for hiring one, but I think that pay by the document would be the best way to go about hiring someone for a smaller game. Working remotely, it's impossible to tell how long someone has genuinely worked, and pay by the word encourages filler text that may not be good writing.

[hanako]

I think it depends on your game design really. If the game text is delivered in small, tightly-structured elements, it may be most sensible to tally up the total estimated number of words and assign a total cost based on a per-word rate for that estimate, then deliver it based on individual documents/milestones being completed.

example would be a game where you primarily need item descriptions, and you know you need X item descriptions and they need to be between 10 and 50 words long.

For a situation where writing is *central* to the entire game and the amount of text needed is very open-ended... that's going to be a tough sell, because that amount of work really calls for a profit-share arrangement, but a profit-share is very hard to negotiate without a good track record.

If you want someone to take your rougher writing and turn things into a more production-ready form, you really want an editor. Check freelancing sites for more information. And good luck, because finding a qualified editor for videogames work is not easy.

However, if you mostly want to do your own writing but are hoping for someone to bounce ideas off of and make vague suggestions to which you still do all the finalising and polishing, you may be able to get people to volunteer for that. There are lots of Idea People in the world who will be happy to talk about stuff with you in exchange for credit because it's as close as they'll ever get to making something.

[Mofko]

There are a lot of writers around who are very happy to write things for free, there are a lot of people who would be very happy to be able to be part of a game who have never touched on anything other then writing their own stories etc.. I think that forums are a good place to find such people.

There are in-fact a few forums dedicated to "creative writing".  I would probably say a free writer was better then a paid writer, you can find them on fiverr but it probably wont get you too far.

[ink.inc]

it's as close as they'll ever get to making something.

dohohohoh

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i worked with a professional writer for immortal defense, but paid him royalties, not a lump sum. he was paid 10% of the profits of the game, same as the musician and sprite artist. he's a friend though; i wouldn't expect a stranger to work for royalties.

There are a lot of writers around who are very happy to write things for free, there are a lot of people who would be very happy to be able to be part of a game who have never touched on anything other then writing their own stories etc.. I think that forums are a good place to find such people.

There are in-fact a few forums dedicated to "creative writing".  I would probably say a free writer was better then a paid writer, you can find them on fiverr but it probably wont get you too far.

yes, but, usually people who would do something for free, do it badly. there are a lot of people willing to do graphics and make music for your games for free as well, but usually it's of lesser quality, or they are less reliable (might give up in the middle of the project and never finish it). if you're paying someone they have a motivation to finish their work and are less likely to abandon it, also if they do it professionally rather than as a hobby they are usually more skilled at it

i think the problem is that it's easier for a layman / uninformed person to tell good graphics from bad graphics, and good music from bad music, but it's less easy for a layman to tell good writing from bad writing, because most people aren't avid readers. so games often skimp on hiring professional and high-quality writers in a way that they don't skimp on hiring professional and high-quality artists and musicians. i think this is the primary reason for bad storytelling in games. if the industry (and if we indies) actually hired pros rather than amateurs, we'd get higher quality stories. and when the game industry *does* bother to hire pros, it's usually people who come from the television writing industry or the hollywood movie writing industry, rather than from the novel writing industry -- i think published novelists tend to be much better writers than people who write for television and movies

[SundownKid]

and when the game industry *does* bother to hire pros, it's usually people who come from the television writing industry or the hollywood movie writing industry, rather than from the novel writing industry -- i think published novelists tend to be much better writers than people who write for television and movies

While that could be the case, most games resemble TV and movies far more than novels. If your game isn't something like a visual novel, I don't think a novel writer would have an advantage at all. A novel writer would excel at writing narrative, something that the majority of games, indie or otherwise, lack.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i don't think that's true actually. movies are 2 hours long; television episodes are 30 minutes long. games can be dozens of hours long, sometimes hundreds. in length, they much more closely resemble novels than movies or television. the average movie screenplay is about 70 pages; the average tv episode screenplay is around 20 pages; the average written text for a videogame with a story can be many hundreds or even several thousands of pages

also importantly, in movies and tv, you listen to people talk. in novels, you read. in most games with stories, you read. so it's also similar in the form of the writing: reading words rather than listening to them. so the skills involved in creating stories for games and for novels are concerned with writing text, and the skills involved in creating stories for movies and television are concerned with writing something intended to be read aloud. there's actually a big difference in how people communicate in writing and when they speak; written sentences are more complicated and longer (with more subordinate clauses). for instance, if i were saying this to you over skype rather than writing it, i'd be using simpler sentences with a much different structure

[Panurge]

i think the problem is that it's easier for a layman / uninformed person to tell good graphics from bad graphics, and good music from bad music, but it's less easy for a layman to tell good writing from bad writing, because most people aren't avid readers. so games often skimp on hiring professional and high-quality writers in a way that they don't skimp on hiring professional and high-quality artists and musicians. i think this is the primary reason for bad storytelling in games. if the industry (and if we indies) actually hired pros rather than amateurs, we'd get higher quality stories. and when the game industry *does* bother to hire pros, it's usually people who come from the television writing industry or the hollywood movie writing industry, rather than from the novel writing industry -- i think published novelists tend to be much better writers than people who write for television and movies

Amen. It amazes me that the standard of writing in games is still generally so poor. Even (or perhaps especially) big new releases have dialogue and exposition which would never pass muster in any other medium.

[TeeGee]

Have you seen any Hollywood movies recently? I would say they are on par. This is just how big mainstream media look these days, unfortunately.

[SundownKid]

there's actually a big difference in how people communicate in writing and when they speak; written sentences are more complicated and longer (with more subordinate clauses). for instance, if i were saying this to you over skype rather than writing it, i'd be using simpler sentences with a much different structure

What about where voice acting comes in? Many big modern games have voice acting, which means the lines will probably be both read and listened to. It's practically a movie without the film.

A novelist might be used to writing long stories, but they are in a different format. I also don't see how dialogue in a book would be different from dialog in a screenplay - you're not aiming to make it sound stilted in any medium. Dialog in screenplays is similarly unrealistic for the sake of clarity, usually. The only difference is that the description is external, which fits the interactive medium better.

[Uykered]

Amen. It amazes me that the standard of writing in games is still generally so poor.

It doesn't need to be in most game genres, whereas in novels its all about the writing/story lol.

[Panurge]

Amen. It amazes me that the standard of writing in games is still generally so poor.

It doesn't need to be in most game genres, whereas in novels its all about the writing/story lol.

I agree that's true for many games. In Tetris, for example, the writing is just as good as it needs to be!

There are an increasing number of games, however, which depend very heavily on story and for the most part they are written poorly (often, as already noted, by members of the development team who are not professional writers). I can think of a couple of big recent fantasy and sci-fi rpgs which require the player to sit through long conversations between characters speaking the sort of cliched drivel that would be unacceptable in other mediums (even Hollywood blockbusters have the sense to keep their drivel snappy!).

I don't have a solution for it because I guess you're right - many casual gamers don't require good writing or, as Paul implied, wouldn't know it if it bit them in the sphincter. If people were bothered then they would complain and choose games with better writing and the industry would take notice. But they don't. Anyway, it just seems a shame...

[James Coote]

I joined a couple of forums for aspiring novel writers and book lovers. One in particular has regular writing competitions and the standard is just so much higher than anything I've ever seen in a game

Novel and script writing aren't a million miles apart from each other. Yes the format is different, but they use many of the same tricks and techniques. In the same way that writing a short story is completely different from writing an epic adventure, I'd rather have a novelist write my script than a sculptor or painter