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[gimymblert]

I wasn't thinking you said weird people make weird game, it was more about:

Portal is a perfect example of this type of game: it does everything
right, and in doing everything right from that standpoint it does
everything wrong from another. Portal was a theoretical "best game",
with perfectly tested everything and perfect polished everything, with
everything in the right place, but wasn't anyone's "dream game"

Portal have so many weird thing (I forgot the companion cube) that it's a bad exemple of "by the book" design. For exemple the game is set in the half life universe "not by the book" but because the creators really wanted to pay hommage to it instead to go into something else.

Almost any defining element of the game was "dream" it was only smooth out or polish, despite using feedback they used every opportunity to make things even weirder, that's the whole companion cube is all about jumping on a feedback opportunity: It start with a challenge they really want to work but doesn't (keeping a cube through a whole serie of challenge), they find a way to it despite bad feedback with a simple heart then jump onto the opportunity to expend on the weirder narrative seen in game (loving an inanimate object) that gain support and the story and end up shaping it and it goes back to gameplay (burning the core).

There is better exemple like new sonic game (the original was made of dream, starting with 3D it became by the book).

EDIT:

yeah i wasn't saying portal was a 'bad game', there are many people who enjoyed it and i enjoyed it. just that i don't think there was a little kid who was like 'some day i'm going to grow up to balance difficulty curves and make cleverly designed puzzles in perfect difficulty progression', and if there was that little kid is dum

and yeah, braid was much the same way. it's a game clearly made by a game design theorist; it was made through deliberation and planning, not excitement and frenzy

  me 

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yeah but in a way i think that actually makes it a good example, because it's not the example you'd expect. if i had picked an obvious, easy example it wouldn't have been as good an example. but i purposefully chose an example that "felt" weird and unique even though it was made in a by-the-book manner.

[ortoslon]

why have i even asked paul for eva's msn? i haven't talked to her much (maybe 20 lines total)

i like this kind of interview more than the usual boring "what does it mean for you to be indie" stuff

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i hate those more than humorous interviews (but i like good interviews like the recent one with cosmind the best)

[gimymblert]

but wasn't anyone's "dream game"

 not excitement and frenzy

 and if there was that little kid is dum

It's okay Paul, That's the part that made me jump... I became a game theorist to be sure the excitement and frenzy actually lead somewhere and not into a mess. I still get pretty excited and logic only enhance that because it open even more opportunity and defeat any impossibility.

I can dream pretty crazy things (not necessarily perfectly polish accessibility) and today the only things that stand between them and me is just more "making" skills. My Recent posts on Tigsource had show me I had reach a state where I'm pretty confident on my game design skills and understanding.

It's part thanks to discussion with people like you that I read or participate.

My programming skills and equipment is still a bit behind, I still need training in "making" a game from scratch alone. (because It's hard to find people who want to engage into my crazy idea).

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yeah games also definitely need a certain degree of planning to hold the excitement together. i make to-do lists and have a design document too. i just don't like when it's all planning and no excitement: if you aren't excited to work on your game each day, you can't expect the player to be excited to play it either.

[s0]

The problem with this whole argument is that it's hard to put into words. I'm not against using theory in game design, I'm against letting theory get in the way of practice, if that makes any sense.

The whole trend towards "manifestos" and stuff that seems to be so popular in with a certain portion of indie devs recently is an example of that. You're no longer making a game because you think it's going to be a good game, you're making it according to some checklist of what constitutes a "good" game. Ideology is for politics, not for art.

EDIT: That doesn't mean a work made according to a manifesto or a specific theory can't be good of course (and many are), but I think it's preferable not to work that way.

[gimymblert]

So this is your manifesto?

I believe I should not make game that have already be done, unless I improve or need to learn something. Why make a generic platformer when I already had good time with mario and co?

Edit:

The basic is simple, the original emotion of meeting game when it was new is what most people chase. I choose to chase it by not repeating the image of that memory, but the setting that has lead to it.

/edit

But at the same time I need a good idea to what I want to make, so I guess some people turn that into a manifesto to gain awareness of some problem.

Therefore I'm engage in a political action where I promote design and innovation as broad as possible in order to achieve creative balance in video game culture I'm also a socialist, video game for all!

Obviously I face right wing people like Icy and co who are a meritocratic free market. Obviously there is moment where the meritocracy failed and became who have the most resource win which is the opposite of their ideal.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i don't think 'excitement' and 'generic platformer' are related. i wouldn't get excited about making one of those (in fact i've never made a platformer because they bore me, but i've done pretty much every other genre).

[mankoon]

I like what you said mr.Eres, despite not agreeing totally on Portal as an example. I'm not even a huge portal fan. The 'dream game' comment had me thinking. I agree with you that it's not my dream game but I'd imagine it might be some simplistic graphic designer's dream game? I once actually had a dream about my dream game. It was some random game I've never heard of being sold in a candy shop. It was along the lines of greatness as Earth Worm Jim but even better some how. Damn it! If only I didn't wake up, I'd have played it! I suppose everyone has their own 'dream game'.

[Hangedman]

Just an aside: we should have a 'Dream Team' compo, where everyone creates a design document for one of their dream games, and then everyone chooses and makes someone else's game, maybe giving the dreamer the source at the end so they can finish it to their specifications.

[gimymblert]

+1

Shamely, my dream game is pretty basic and I have no excitement to make it happen.

[floatstarpx]

I think Portal had to be really strictly designed to make sense. I mean, now that I've played the game, I know pretty well how everything in that game works, but watching trailers for that game made my brain hurt. If you listen to any of developer commentaries, you can see they go to great lengths to make sure the player understands exactly how everything works. To be fair though, I mostly agree with you, I just think Portal was really good despite being very 'traditionally' well-built.

Yeah, completely.

I think it's a case of: don't follow what you think the rules are, instead - follow the reasoning (behind the rules). And the reasoning is always based in the player experience.

[Dustin Smith]

i should totally 'interview' thecatimites (Space Funeral dude). he seems like an interesting guy.

[s0]

So this is your manifesto?

I follow the Aleister Crowley school of game design.

[gimymblert]

Seen in suikoden

[eva]

i don get it

[s0]

The religion (Thelema) is founded upon the idea that the 20th century marked the beginning of the Aeon of Horus, in which a new ethical code would be followed; "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". This statement indicated that adherents, who are known as Thelemites, should seek out and follow their own True Will rather than their ego's desires.The religion also emphasizes the ritual practice of Magick.

While you degenerates waste your time with your puny "coding" and "design", I conjure my games using magickal rituals.

[ross]

who is paul eres?

[ink.inc]

This guy:

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?action=profile;u=154

He's known for making Immortal Defense and posts that consist of insurmountable walls of text. He also occasionally writes articles for TIGS.