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[brog]

The Magic the Gathering CRPG had a cool method of levelling up.. you just win cards from battles, which you can then put in your deck for later battles.
Build a game around a more interesting basic gameplay loop than "you hit for 2d6+n damage, next turn" and maybe that'll present more interesting methods of advancement.  Throwing dice to deal damage is basically Snakes and Ladders.  Boring.

[Traveller]

The Magic the Gathering CRPG had a cool method of levelling up.. you just win cards from battles, which you can then put in your deck for later battles.

Have you ever played the card games that infest the Final Fantasy series from 8 onwards?

Those games seem even MORE grindy than the RPG itself!  It's very easy to do card-game-based advancement wrong, that's for sure.

[brog]

Have you ever played the card games that infest the Final Fantasy series from 8 onwards?

Those games seem even MORE grindy than the RPG itself!  It's very easy to do card-game-based advancement wrong, that's for sure.

I haven't played any FF games, but you do make an excellent point.  If there's only one way in the game to get a particular ability, and it takes grinding, that could be worse than XP-based levelling where several different routes will get you the same effect (more XP to put into the same skills).  Shannara did it right, in my opinion.

[Craig Stern]

It definitely helped that the Magic CRPG involved so much randomness. The world (and each of the dungeons in it) are procedurally generated, so it's never the same twice. The enemies all have very different decks with different tactics that attend them. And even when you fight the same enemy multiple times in a row, the random nature of the shuffling and card-dealing ensures variety.

I think that the rest of what made it work from a "level-gaining" perspective, though, is that you had to think strategically about what you needed in order to strengthen your deck or start a new one--it wasn't just about the mindless accumulation of points.

[gunswordfist]

Have you ever played the card games that infest the Final Fantasy series from 8 onwards?

Those games seem even MORE grindy than the RPG itself!  It's very easy to do card-game-based advancement wrong, that's for sure.

I haven't played any FF games, but you do make an excellent point.  If there's only one way in the game to get a particular ability, and it takes grinding, that could be worse than XP-based levelling where several different routes will get you the same effect (more XP to put into the same skills).  Shannara did it right, in my opinion.

I played Final Fantasy 8's card game countless times and its not bad at all. I used it to get the second strongest weapon in the game at the beginning.

[Alec S.]

A Magic the Gathering/Collectible Card Game type idea is interesting.  In theory, no Magic the Gathering card is inherently more powerful than any other (any card that is is because of a balance issue rather than an intentional design choice).  The more cards you get doesn't make your more powerful as a player, they just give you more options on how to build your deck. 

A possible way to implement this in an RPG setting is make it so you don't get more powerful as you level up, you just get more options.  You level outwards if you will.  Make it so that you can find or win powers from various challenges in the game, but make sure that every power is balanced with strengths and weaknesses (for example, a spell that does more damage costs more to cast).  Don't just increase the players skills, let them find something that allows them to increase one skill with a penalty somewhere else (player can increase magic ability but has to lower strength).

Of course some character builds would be more powerful than others, but that would require the player to think strategically how they build their characters.

[sandjack]

EVE Online has an interesting a-typical levelling system that was first described to me as "anti-grinding". It's a skill based system rather than a level-based system and, at any given time, you are training a particular skill. Each skill has 5 levels and each level takes a longer amount of real-time to learn, and continues to train even when you leave the game. So, if you want to learn how to fly a certain type of ship you just have to get the skill, meet the prerequisites, and wait for a few minutes, or hours, or days.

Now it's not just a flat system because most of the swankier skills have other skills as prerequisites, and all but the most basic skills have to be either purchased or earned through missions. You could introduced story and plot based gates that makes sure players always have what they need at the right times, while preventing "time-grinding" -- leaving the console off or artificially setting the clock ahead.

Now, EVE is an MMO but this model can work in a non-online game. Fable II, for one, lets you earn money during downtime -- every time you start playing the game, you get the money accrued from your rental properties while you were gone.

Another game that uses something like this, and also something like the CCG style leveling malec mentioned, is The World Ends With You. In this game you get a bunch of "Pins" that have various powers that help in combat. You get more pins as the game goes on. These pins do have individual power levels but you can also level the pins in your current deck by saving the game and leaving it off for up to a week.

Another wait-based mechanic, you also have stats that you can improve by eating various foods. The foods take real time to eat so you gradually improve your stats over time.

Now all of these progression mechanics DO include some amount of grinding involved with them. EVE has plenty of cash based grinding - mining, salvaging, etc. etc. - and the money you get from these is needed to get more advanced skills. You can level all of your pins by simply killing enemies in TWEWY (though some give special bonuses if you level them a specific way) and you ultimately get many rare pins by farming enemies.

Why include grinding at all in a game like that? One reason is, I think, it gives players something at all to do with the game while they're waiting to skill up - and gives them a motivation to do it. Just providing a difficult section of the game that requires many tries can be a form of grinding, just on the frustration end of grinding instead of the boredom end. I agree that forcing players to do something inherently unfun is not a great design decision but at the same time it's important to motivate players and giving them more power in the context of the game is a powerful reward; these days just points are rarely enough.

[Lucaz]

I've no problem with the standard leveling up of RPGs. The only problem is what gives the xp. The ideal would be for most xp to be given through quests. And only fights that imply a risk give xp. If a certain enemy or encounter doesn't have a medium chance of defeating you, you don't get anything. It's hard to grind in that situation, and anyone that grind even then, well, they have done enough to win those xp points.

[godsavant]

A Magic the Gathering/Collectible Card Game type idea is interesting.  In theory, no Magic the Gathering card is inherently more powerful than any other (any card that is is because of a balance issue rather than an intentional design choice).  The more cards you get doesn't make your more powerful as a player, they just give you more options on how to build your deck. 

A possible way to implement this in an RPG setting is make it so you don't get more powerful as you level up, you just get more options.  You level outwards if you will.  Make it so that you can find or win powers from various challenges in the game, but make sure that every power is balanced with strengths and weaknesses (for example, a spell that does more damage costs more to cast).  Don't just increase the players skills, let them find something that allows them to increase one skill with a penalty somewhere else (player can increase magic ability but has to lower strength).

Of course some character builds would be more powerful than others, but that would require the player to think strategically how they build their characters.

In terms of equip-based solutions, I believe games like the Mega Man: Battle Network games get overlooked as prime examples of successful implementation. Mega Man's default gun was pathetically weak throughout (1 damage per shot), but the system of 'uploading' a set number of randomized 'chips' (special moves) to the battlefield made the combat constantly intense, as the player dodged enemy attacks in real-time and plinked away with the Mega Buster while waiting for their special moves to recharge. Even more, even the weakest enemies required certain weapons to defeat cleanly, so the player had to customize his 'deck' of special attacks in preparation for each new boss or dungeon.
   Another less recognized aspect is the 'reconfiguration' of Mega Man's parts. Somewhere around BN4, the game introduced a stat system with a Tetris-like interface, with the player acquiring pieces that could be fit together; each piece represented a stat boost, such as "Mega Buster Power +1" or "Speed +3" - essentially, the equivalent of leveling up. But the stipulation was that the stacked pieces could not exceed a certain height, so players would have to engage in a quasi-puzzle minigame to fit as many pieces within the space as possible, often having to choose between different stat boosts to take up that bit of space - although they could always be swapped and reorganized to fit the situation.

 

[Mikademus]

DDRogue, an entry in the 7DRL, innovates quite a bit, really. You've amnesia and as you explore the game you find your old stuff, and every item you locate gives back memories and powers, thus neatly tying together story and levelling.

http://cymonsgames.retroremakes.com/2009-7drl-ddrogue/

[sandjack]

   Another less recognized aspect is the 'reconfiguration' of Mega Man's parts. Somewhere around BN4, the game introduced a stat system with a Tetris-like interface, with the player acquiring pieces that could be fit together; each piece represented a stat boost, such as "Mega Buster Power +1" or "Speed +3" - essentially, the equivalent of leveling up. But the stipulation was that the stacked pieces could not exceed a certain height, so players would have to engage in a quasi-puzzle minigame to fit as many pieces within the space as possible, often having to choose between different stat boosts to take up that bit of space - although they could always be swapped and reorganized to fit the situation.

This reminds me of Super Smash Bros Brawl's sticker system. These stickers appear periodically / randomly in matches and are also given as rewards in the single player campaign. These stickers give different sorts of power bonuses to characters in generally the same way as the MegaMan BN system described above. The trick is, in order for the sticker to work it must be "stuck" on the bottom of the character trophy with no overlaps. Leads to a nice organic problem solving/customization game.

[Cymon]

DDRogue, an entry in the 7DRL, innovates quite a bit, really. You've amnesia and as you explore the game you find your old stuff, and every item you locate gives back memories and powers, thus neatly tying together story and levelling.

http://cymonsgames.retroremakes.com/2009-7drl-ddrogue/

I agree.

[Mikademus]

DDRogue, an entry in the 7DRL, innovates quite a bit, really. You've amnesia and as you explore the game you find your old stuff, and every item you locate gives back memories and powers, thus neatly tying together story and levelling.

http://cymonsgames.retroremakes.com/2009-7drl-ddrogue/

I agree.

Oh. Sorry about that.

[Cymon]

DDRogue, an entry in the 7DRL, innovates quite a bit, really. You've amnesia and as you explore the game you find your old stuff, and every item you locate gives back memories and powers, thus neatly tying together story and levelling.

http://cymonsgames.retroremakes.com/2009-7drl-ddrogue/

I agree.

Oh. Sorry about that.

Nothing for you to feel bad about. I feel bad that it got ignored awhile back by everyone else. Chances are that means no one tried the game out. I hate making invisible posts.

[sandjack]

DDRogue, an entry in the 7DRL, innovates quite a bit, really. You've amnesia and as you explore the game you find your old stuff, and every item you locate gives back memories and powers, thus neatly tying together story and levelling.

http://cymonsgames.retroremakes.com/2009-7drl-ddrogue/

I agree.

Oh. Sorry about that.

Nothing for you to feel bad about. I feel bad that it got ignored awhile back by everyone else. Chances are that means no one tried the game out. I hate making invisible posts.

For what it's worth, I tried it. It was awesome.

[Mikademus]

DDRogue, an entry in the 7DRL, innovates quite a bit, really. You've amnesia and as you explore the game you find your old stuff, and every item you locate gives back memories and powers, thus neatly tying together story and levelling.

http://cymonsgames.retroremakes.com/2009-7drl-ddrogue/

I agree.

Oh. Sorry about that.

Nothing for you to feel bad about. I feel bad that it got ignored awhile back by everyone else. Chances are that means no one tried the game out. I hate making invisible posts.

(For what it's worth)^2, most of my posts here go ignored. I hope it is because I'm still a relative newbie rather than they're simply plain old boring... O.0

[NMcCoy]

I want to second the liking of the Zelda/Metroid system of "leveling up", and want to specifically bring up a couple things:

In both of these game series, there's a linear "leveling up" system that expands your life bar, and this is done in both games by exploring and solving puzzles, and additionally in Zelda by defeating bosses. There are also more rarely opportunities to power up your defenses and primary attack.

Additionally, both games feature "leveling out" - acquiring new abilities orthogonal to your existing ones. This is very fertile ground for building a game around, as it's not tied to a linear system and thus neither requires nor permits grinding in order to progress.

Another example of "leveling out" is the Mega Man games - Each level you complete grants you a new and different ability, but you can take on the levels (and thus acquire the abilities) in any order you want.

As a contrasting point, I'd like to bring up Psychonauts - in this game, there were certain required abilities that had to be gained by leveling up. The "experience" in this game is a linear scale, but there are several different sources of levels in the game - figments, psi cards, scavenger hunts - all of which are finite within the game, and all of which are collection/exploration-driven. At a certain point in the game I found myself needing to "exploration grind" in order to progress, which was interesting from a design perspective but not particularly fun.

Personally, I would very much like to see an MMO that involves "leveling out" more than leveling up - where the differences in character power across all players are relatively minor, but there is a lot of breadth in character diversity, and any particular desired ability can be acquired with a 15-minute quest or so (though some will be more challenging than others to obtain). This would allow any group of characters to adventure together as peers, and eliminate many of the common problems of a kill-stuff-to-gain-xp system.

[Mikademus]

Speaking of Zelda, the entire premise of Paper Mario was built on that you could flip the dimensionality of the world. However, if that ability, or a similar one, would be a level-up ability then that might constitute an "orthogonal" way of levelling up that would mean a more powerful character but also new ways of playing the game.

Otherwise, I think Gothic I and II (never played the 3rd instalment) managed levelling up nicely: when training in weapons you simply got more moves with them, which in a 1st/3rd person RPG actually means a lot. Not only did you get better and faster with your weapons, you could learn new ones and use them more effective, which was necessary for successfully progressing, without making it into an action RPG.

[magnum_opus]

On the note of cards there's the game Lost Kingdoms 2 (and 1 as well I suppose but I hear it was a bit crap). In LK you can level up/grind but it doesn't make a significant difference the majority of the progression is gaining new cards, which in #2 gives both new abilities like jump and new attacks.

It works quite well for making you want to explore everywhere while not making you particularly concerned with constantly fighting/training a skill.

The system would probably work pretty well in a turn based RPG as well if it's an action point based combat system instead of just a single action per turn style. It would end up being similar to Chrono Cross' combat system but with a bit more randomness I suspect.
Meanwhile out side of combat new equipment/cards granting new abilities allow for plenty of puzzle elements in dungeons, like say Golden Sun 1&2's frequent djinn based puzzles which both prevent progress until a certain point and keep the puzzles relatively fresh throughout the game.

[Lez]

It honestly depends on how your going to go about designing the games system for progression. For example in most RPG's the battle system is based entirely around preparation, if your not prepared, you will lose and cant progress.
Skill based games expect the player to apply what he has learned so even if there not of a high level in terms of statistics they can overcome it with a high level of skill.

For the most part the old way of doing level ups is a thing of that past that was used to slow down player progress and provide an easy way of showing character progression. Now days leveling just removes some of the skill or strategy especially in turn based games unless there's some way of overcoming the number game by using your wits.