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[Radix]

it's not that the japanese are more twisted, it's more that the kind of stuff they allow on tv there has less censorship, so more of it gets through.

Since the vast majority of this stuff doesn't start life on television this probably has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@radix - i was just using television as an example rather than naming every media -- would not the same apply elsewhere? i also mentioned the censorship in american comics vs japanese manga the next post over. the various publishers for the various media censor that which they think there is no audience for, and in japan they tend to be more lenient, rather than creators more creative

[Shade Jackrabbit]

...the various publishers for the various media censor that which they think there is no audience for, and in japan they tend to be more lenient, rather than creators more creative

Hence the great thing about the internet: Much larger audience, not really limited by country, so there are far less censors.

I'll use the comic El Goonish Shive, as an example. It's...

"A strange comic about a group of teenagers and the bizarre, often supernatural, situations that they face. Includes a continuing storyline with non-linear joke comics on the side. WARNING: Often ignores the laws of Physics."

In terms of genre, it's Fantasy, Drama, Suspense, Situational Comedy, and sometimes Romantic Comedy in a contemporary setting. It started out as a sort of gag comic, and evolved into quite a complex storyline. It's very character-driven, though, and there's many parts where you'll get many pages in a row with just characterization. Not really something that any mainstream comic company would pick up (aside from the fact that the artwork and writing is somewhat average) because of the high drama content and the characters involved.

To list the really "touchy" stuff (that it actually deals with in a rather mature and respectful manner): There's an androgynous guy who looks like a girl and makes people almost gay for him, theres a [hard to define sexuality] girl/furry/shapeshifter, a few lesbians, a gay guy, and an entire chapter where all the characters swap their gender. No chance of publication in America, as it deals with topics that are effectively taboo in the country. In Japan it would probably pass, considering all the "crazy" stuff over there. But thanks to the internet, it passes just about anywhere you have a connection. Huzzah!

[Bree]

@theo

that may be because here comics mainly have a male audience, so there's some type of 'censorship' in that regard too, because why publish a comic with romance in it if it has no audience? even if a truly great romantic comic were released in the US, on par with the best of the japanese stuff, nobody would hear about it and it'd sell poorly, since there's no real audience for it here yet (it has to be built up over time, the way it was in japan)

i mean, there are some claims about the entertainment choices of males and females in games, what i claimed in the first post is somewhat non-obvious, but i think it's pretty obvious that the romance novel genre is primarily consumed by women (just as pornography is primarily consumed by men) -- i'd be surprised if even 10% of romance novel sales were to men

so it's more that the need for romance entertainment in the US is met by the romance novel already, it's cornered the market for it -- so to really be fair you'd have to compare romance comics/animation in japan with romance novels here. and i haven't read enough of them to say how they compare in their twistedness.

What are you saying? There is most definitely a market for romantic comics- it's why titles like Sailor Moon, Ouran Host Club, and Fruits Basket sell so well. The audience has been building up, and we're starting to see it now. The important thing to remember is that the romance novels are often targeted at older women, leaving the younger generation with... well, Twilight. Funny thing that you should mention the romantic novels, though... Take a look at this:

"Dark Horse Manga and Harlequin Books are delighted to present a shining new line of books that marry two of the most successful phenomena to hit bookstores - bestselling Harlequin romance fiction and female-friendly Japanese manga! These sparkling manga adaptations of Harlequin's best-selling titles are a romantic step above much of the cookie-cutter manga hitting the shelves today and feature stories by Harlequin's top authors!"

Or how about this? Marvel, one of the Big Two superhero comic factories, is producing a monthly version of Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice. Haven't heard of it? It's probably because Marvel's not doing much to advertise it at all- that costs money, and means more risk. It's why you see titles that are already guaranteed to sell, like Madden and Grand Theft Auto 4, get huge ad campaigns to get even more people to buy it. Even if they lose some money, the investors know that they can still get some back.

And on the subject of pornography,

an interesting (and semi-NSFW) video about internet porn statistics. 28% of porn viewers are women, and the most popular porn site is AdultFriendFinder- a social networking site, even if it's solely for casual sex.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@shade - yes, that's a good example & i agree -- as an aside, i actually tried advertising immortal defense using those project wonderful ads that comic has once, since i felt the audience fit my own, but it's pretty expensive so i only did it for a few hours (the rate is like 5$ and $15 a day)

@theo - sailor moon did okay but not as well as in japan; i suspect the same is true of the others. there's a fan base among *young* girls, yes, because cartoons and comics are seen as a kid thing here (as opposed to japan where everyone reads them), so i didn't mean that there's no audience, just a more limited one. exceptions just prove a rule (i.e. since they're exceptions rather than something we see every day)

[Radix]

@radix - i was just using television as an example

No, you were just off track.
But rather than follow your lead to turn this into a discussion about you and what exactly your intentions really are when you say something wrong, here's something more likely:

Japan has a large market for their comic compilations. In addition to the tendency to like variety and new talent, this is a medium which compared to most others is low-cost, competitive and frequently published, so there's a much larger pool for unique stuff to spawn in even if the majority of it is the same old shit, which then passes through the filter of being selected for cartoon adaptation.
The cultural difference (ie that they are fucking weird) adds more unique flavour even if it's not central to the process.

Also. Not producing something because there's no market for it is not in any way censorship (resist that impulse to redefine the word, you can do it). 

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@radix - i'm really not trying to lead people into discussing my intentions, i find those conversations kinda boring. and, the stuff you wrote there about japan doesn't disagree with what i was saying, but complements it

[moi]

In the casual gamespace, romantic "visual novel" games are selling like hot cakes right now.
Hanako games and winterwolves know it well.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@moi - could you name some in particular? the only one i remember is fatal hearts, and it didn't sell very well (not as well as cute knight) from what i know

[moi]

from what I heard fatal heart sold well and I think jack norton has released another game of the same genre that is selling well also (don't remember the name) and there are a couple other games (from papillon or another female dev I think) well I seem to consistently hear on indiegamer.com about these games selling reeealllly well on portals.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

spirited heart; i haven't checked its sales numbers. i think they sell okay, but i wouldn't call them 'like hotcakes' -- they certainly aren't a dominant or even common genre on the casual portals, though the few of them that exist do okay (probably to niche audiences of japanese anime fangirls)

[moi]

I've read on indiegamer that he was selling a lot of these on bigfish or sthg.
After clifsky, norton and papillon seem to be the leaders for indie revenue (outside of match3/HO devellopers)

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

depends on who you count as an indie. i suspect think jon blow blows them all away; he probably makes more than those three combined just from braid sales -- a lot of high-profile games that get on steam probably sell better than any of their games too (notably, none of those three has a game on steam)

[moi]

I was thinking one man PC devellopers.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

but a lot of those aren't one man since they pay artists and musicians for their work (although they're one man in that one person gets all the profits, yeah)

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

also, if we're talking solely 1-man pc shareware operations, spiderwebsoftware is probably still king

[Shade Jackrabbit]

also, if we're talking solely 1-man pc shareware operations, spiderwebsoftware is probably still king

http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/come_aboard.html 3-man. Well, 1 man and 2 women.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

ah, true, though still, one person makes all the games, the other two just handle various management and organization tasks

[Shade Jackrabbit]

ah, true, though still, one person makes all the games, the other two just handle various management and organization tasks

Eh...

My name is Mariann Krizsan... In general, I do everything at Spiderweb that Jeff doesn't. This translates to all website development and maintaince, tech support, testing, the graphic design of our CDs and booklet layouts, and lately dialogue porting.

My name is Linda Strout... I do a lot of the daily tasks that Mariann used to do, as well as proofreading, editing and whatever else needs doing.

So Mariann handles the website and designs of the CDs, tests things, and ports dialogue. And Linda proofreads and edits, which when dealing with the type of games they're selling is very important.

So I wouldn't say they really only do management and organization.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

what category would you consider those things, if not management and organization? i'm not sure of a category that includes all of those things, but none of those are really working on the games.