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[Dragonmaw]

The best person to make a judgement is the most informed, which is usually the dude who makes the decision.

The best person to make a judgement is the least biased, which is usually not the dude who makes the decision.

[googoogjoob]

Why would he delete one random Cave story video on youtube ? Why won't he tell the fans and the press why make their games wii-exclusive ? Why isn't he allowing quote to appear in the indie brawl game ?

Nobody knows exactly.

So how can they be bad decisions if you don't know the reason behind them ?

Why would a murderer/rapist decide to murder/rape someone?

Nobody knows exactly.

So how can they be bad decisions if you don't know the reason behind them?

The point isn't that the reasoning behind the decisions is bad, it's that the effects of the decisions are bad, and the fact that the reasoning behind the decisions is being withheld implies that it isn't very good reasoning.

also please don't take the above to mean that i think murder and rape are one a par with pr messups it is just the handiest example of that sort of thing with a probably-unambiguous "they are bad decisions" assumption

[jwk5]

What answer could Tyrone possibly give that is going to make everyone (or even most) people happy? I mean let's be realistic, before he's even said anything on the matter there's already 19 pages of criticisms and assumptions. Even if he gives answers it is not going to make people any happier with the outcome, it is probably just going to fire off a second round of criticisms and debates.

I am not saying his behavior is acceptable or whatever, I am saying I don't know him and I've never really spoke to him and I know very little about how he runs his business or what deals he may have with who and what stipulations there may be, and from the sounds of it 99% of the people on this thread don't either. Yet everyone feels they are knowledgeable enough to point the finger?

also please don't take the above to mean that i think murder and rape are one a par with pr messups it is just the handiest example of that sort of thing with a probably-unambiguous "they are bad decisions" assumption

In the land of the game fanboy they pretty much are. PR mess ups will get you hanged.

[Melly]

Maybe the people posting in this thread could stop bickering like 13-year-olds and I won't have to lock it. What do you guys say?

[Alex May]

Why would he delete one random Cave story video on youtube ? Why won't he tell the fans and the press why make their games wii-exclusive ? Why isn't he allowing quote to appear in the indie brawl game ?

Nobody knows exactly.

So how can they be bad decisions if you don't know the reason behind them ?

Why would a murderer/rapist decide to murder/rape someone?

Why did Hitler make the Nazis and kill the Jews?

Please don't think I'm pro-Nazi/holocaust here, it was just the handiest way to point out a terrible and unconvincing analogy.

[Movius]

This sets a shitty precedence for Indie-Mainstream relations

Wow that mass-unionisation sure was sudden and unexpected here on planet Lolwut

[Dragonmaw]

Why did Hitler make the Nazis and kill the Jews?

Hitler didn't found the Nazi party and, as far as I'm aware, never killed any Jews personally.

[Alex May]

Tyrone never raped anyone.

[Mipe]

Why did the chicken cross the road?

I agree these arguments are silly.

[Movius]

because Tyrone held a gun to its head.

[jwk5]

Wow... this topic went downhill fast. Is this the point in the topic where people have run out of anything useful to say so they're just going to take shots at one another instead?

One thing that has always struck me as odd, though, is that for as much praised as Cave Story and Pixel are you really don't hear Pixel addressing the indie community much (and certainly not here) or saying much of anything regarding it, yet everyone is mad at Tyrone. Why not be mad at Pixel? He sold the rights and he is equally as silent on the matter. How do you know he himself did not approve of "Huzzah!" becoming "Ohhh Yeaah!" or whatever? Everyone's looking for a single villain, but is it really that simple?

I don't even understand why Cave Story is such a big deal, myself (at least in terms of the indie community). There were plenty of games that were as equally well put together, if not more so, even before it. Right off the bat Eternal Daughter comes to mind (which is the game that turned me on to indie games) and Derek Yu has a lot more to do with the indie game scene (or at least is more active in it) than Pixel. It makes no sense to me at all why there is so much fanaticism to Cave Story. It has become almost mythical and yet it is not without peers.

Which brings us back to this topic. Yeah the Wii port could have been better, but it is not like Tyrone tea-bagged his balls in the Holy Grail or something, his company made a port of a game. OK, so he isn't answering questions adequately. Not many companies, big or small, do. Sure, it doesn't excuse it but in reality it doesn't need to either. If you don't like it then you don't have to buy it, and if nobody buys it then I guess he'll get the message. Otherwise what you've got is what you get, no matter how much of a stink you want to make about it.

I think if anything poisons the indie scene it isn't poor PR work or commercial opportunists, it is unrealistic expectations and fanatical insistence (not to mention a strange sense of entitlement).

[Valter]

Not to mention that Nicalis has basically been Pixel's liaison to the community. I doubt we would have gotten that interview otherwise.

[Guert]

I have the weird impression that no matter who made the port, people are going to bitch.

Also, I feel like this thread is going nowhere and is getting nastier by the second. I feel like locking it up. If anyone can give me a good reason not to, I won't. Otherwise this discussion will come to an end.

[JackieJay]

Why would a murderer/rapist decide to murder/rape someone?

Nobody knows exactly.

So how can they be bad decisions if you don't know the reason behind them?

The point isn't that the reasoning behind the decisions is bad, it's that the effects of the decisions are bad, and the fact that the reasoning behind the decisions is being withheld implies that it isn't very good reasoning.

also please don't take the above to mean that i think murder and rape are one a par with pr messups it is just the handiest example of that sort of thing with a probably-unambiguous "they are bad decisions" assumption

Whatever decisions they would make, would be bad for someone. Now we don't have any way to know if those decisions were made to protect their own asses, out of pure hatred for the community or whatever. Like I said many times before, we just can't label their decisions as bad PR/business decisions if we don't know why they did it. By the way, please note the bad PR/business decisions part, this discussion is about Nicalis themselves, not about whether or not the community was affected. It got pretty obvious some people in the indie community got pissed, now we don't know how big the damage for Nicalis and/or for the community would have been if they wouldn't have made those decisions or made different decisions.

Also following your own example, perhaps the murderer killed the victim out of self-defense ? It wouldn't have been a smart decision to just let yourself get killed, wouldn't it ?
One's perception of "victim" and "murdered" can get twisted pretty fast once we know all the facts. I'm not saying that's what's happening with Nicalis, the main difference between the example above and Nicalis is that we actually know the facts behind his decision to kill the victim.

The best person to make a judgement is the most informed, which is usually the dude who makes the decision.

The best person to make a judgement is the least biased, which is usually not the dude who makes the decision.

Well I still think that even the most unbiased judge can't tell if the accused is guilty or not without knowing all, or at least most of the facts.

I have the weird impression that no matter who made the port, people are going to bitch.

Also, I feel like this thread is going nowhere and is getting nastier by the second. I feel like locking it up. If anyone can give me a good reason not to, I won't. Otherwise this discussion will come to an end.

Actually I think the discussion got healthier than it was a few pages back so I dont see why it should be locked.

[Guert]

Actually I think the discussion got healthier than it was a few pages back so I dont see why it should be locked.

Perhaps the last 10 posts? Anyway, I'm watching this thread to see how it goes. 

[dspencer]

I think that the problem seems to be that Nicalis is acting in a standard way for a mainstream producer. Some people are yelling "AHH THIS IS SO BAD" while others are saying "ITS WHAT THE AAA PRODUCERS DO DON'T YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?"

What it boils down to, though, is Indieness^(r). People are upset because Nicalis is taking something from the indie community and (attempting to) bring it mainstream, with all the baggage that comes with that. Especially because people see Cave Story as the holy grail of indie games, they don't like to see one of "their games" get taken by the industry that they oppose, essentially (oppose in that the indie game community does provide a fairly apt foil to the mainstream community, in a lot of ways).

So, is it ok for tyrone to treat an indie game as a mainstream game? Is that good or bad? I have my own opinion of it (I hope it wasn't too apparent in my post!) but in the end my opinion isn't important so I will ask ya'll.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i disagree with that -- i don't agree that nicalis is acting like a mainstream publisher generally (for instance, nicalis still posted fanart on its site, communicates with fans via instant messenger, and in other ways generally stays in touch with the community), and i don't agree that nicalis is not an indie developer or not acting like one; it's not as if EA bought cave story. the issue is only whether their actions make sense -- e.g. does it make sense to make these games wii-exclusive, and not tell anybody why. i've yet to see a rationale about why it'd be a good thing to not tell the community why they elected to go wii-exclusive.

[Valter]

e.g. does it make sense to make these games wii-exclusive, and not tell anybody why. i've yet to see a rationale about why it'd be a good thing to not tell the community why they elected to go wii-exclusive.

Do you know enough about what's going on to answer any of those?

Answer is no.

[bento_smile]

i've yet to see a rationale about why it'd be a good thing to not tell the community why they elected to go wii-exclusive.

Breach of contract..? I mean, it's a good thing for them if they don't breach any NDAs, yes?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@bento_smile / valter - there's no nda contract that demands that you can't even mention that the nda contract exists, to my knowledge. that'd be kind of illegal. they are at least able to say that they are unable to say something; but they haven't even said that they are unable to say it.