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Yeah. Ive been thinking about this. What would be a good way to make interesting enemies that are deep and attachable. I'm thinking a bad guy(Not a regular minion) who is COOL and some people actually like him.  :crazy:

Are you asking how to profile an enemy character or the bad guy?

I feel a bit ashamed about this but...

I have noticed the Bleach manga / anime has the tendency to give flashbacks on the enemies' past as long as they last longer than 5 minutes on the screen. They also give the enemies some goals of their own( which they never actually reach, obviously ), and show their current struggles.

This works. I mean, people start giving a crap about enemies, but it's mostly about silly things like who's stronger... mostly, some conversations about their feelings take place too. However this creates some really bothersome situations in a TV show where you see 10 minutes flashbacks for every minor enemy the main character fights.

Personally I would only do this for recurring enemies, or maybe bosses.


On the other hand, in games, I have often seen discussions about enemies who were special in some way or another for the player. Maybe this enemy is specially hard to beat, or it has a funny look. It simply attracted the player's attention.

THIS THIS THIS THHHIIISSS!

That should be the basis of all enemies that you want to develop into character. The enemy can't just hate the main character and obstruct their path for no reason, they need motives behind it. I think the best thing to do is make the enemy a person before you make them an enemy. A person with opinions, feelings, goals, desires, likes, dislikes, the whole shabang.

Since you want your enemy to be liked make their problems something people can relate to and make their goals, goals that a real people could think of doing or could be put into the position to do. Make the enemy a person that is in their current situation by pure necessity ex. they have to steal because they have no money. The reason that most enemies are hated is because they are doing things normal people wouldn't think of doing, thus doing the opposite should counter that.

P.S. If anything in this post is hard to understand tell me. There's a lot of noise right now so it's hard to think.

Not every person you are fighting will be redeemable, but there had to have been something in their past that made them do what they did. People just don't get up one day and say "I will try to commit evil acts!" unless they are a 2-Dimensional character, a sociopath or a Kefka-style psycho. Remember that in their mind, they are the good guy.

Also, I recently played Nier and it really screws with you in terms of enemy characters.

kefka wasn't actually that 2-dimensional, he had some motivations. his mind was broken by forced esper infusion (if i recall, he was their first experiment, they later refined it and used it on celes, and didn't break her mind in the process). because of this, kefka developed a hatred for the emperor who did it to him, and eventually killed that emperor. not having anything left to do after that, because his mind was still broken, he used the towers to damage the world significantly, turning it largely into a wasteland. after that he just sat in his tower and used lasers on things occasionally. when the player team meets him, he says that he wants to end everyone else's hopes and dreams because his were forcibly ended against his will. that doesn't seem two-dimensional to me. not the most original design, and not something most people can really relate to, and had erratic behavior (like the joker in batman), but he had a back story and motivations.

I wasn't calling Kefka 2 dimensional, just an example of someone who would be mindful of doing evil stuff and still not care. So basically, every bad guy doesn't have to be relatable but if none of them are, the story will suck.

I would consider depth more like how cohesive the world and characters are. How they ebb and flow unto one another, influence each other, etc. So I'd focus on that.

Though for player interest, I would say that it depends more on build up for the player to be anticipated to fight him, rather than how deep the enemy character is. Arouse the player's interest in fighting him. I mean, in the context of a game (considering yours is linear), gray morality is pretty disconnected to that gameplay, and will probably cause a sort of dissonance between the player and the character.

Dissonance can be interesting though. People felt a sort of pity for the SoTC bosses and that was a pivotal point for its story.

Giving and enemy/villain a goal does wonders for likeablility. Also, playing up the fan service card a little bit helps, too. Don't go nuts, but a touch of the common and identifiable in a character brings the player closer to them.

Make your bad guy funny.

(http://www.futuregamez.net/movies/5thelement/5thelement5.jpg)

Word.

Also, a bad guy is only ever as good as the lines he speaks. Zorg was a great villain because his lines were choice and dry indicating to us a cold intelligence that matched with his position.

On the other hand, Boba Fett is a great villain because he is largely quiet and imposing for his relatively normal stature. Therefore we unconsciously identify him as extremely dangerous and methodical. When he does talk he is specific about the price value of Han Solo so we know he is in it for the money alone.

Basically, designing a great character requires careful thought about how that character fits into their environment, reacts to it (speech), and how they carry themselves (posture).

Well this is embarrassing  :whome:

@TheZorg: (it's the bad guy from The Fifth Element (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fifth_Element), if that's what you're embarrassed about. Also, you shouldn't be.)

He's embarrassed because their names are both Zorg, I think.

Make them feel alive.

This is to say, that if they're trying to build an enormous Death Laser that will destroy the moon, give him a reason to. Maybe the moon mocked him as a child. Maybe he's not trying to DESTROY it, and is in fact, trying to make it BRIGHTER so he can read the adventures of Tin-tin at night out in a grassy knoll. Maybe the guy just wants some moon cheese.

We don't know that, and it's up to you, as the writer, to tell us.

someone said something about flashbacks. disregard flashbacks. those are terrible. the rest was fine.

A great villain has things to do. A great villain, from his perspective, is not the villain of the story. He is going about his business and some silly heroes are trying to stop his quest. ugh will you just LET ME DESTROY THE WORLD?? ___GOD___. Give them personality. Make them... Raw? Or maybe some complex mastermind.
Best tip I've read in this thread is "give them life".

A villain has a heart, it's just very dark and angry. Or maybe it just doesnt care. But it's a character, not just a mechanic.

My favorite villains are the kind that make the player reevaluate a seemingly black and white situation.  I really liked how in Trigun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigun), the villain (who happens to be intimately tied to the protagonist) points out how painfully "grey" the world really is, using a butterfly and spider to illustrate his point.  A butterfly gets caught in a spider's nest and the protagonist asks the villain to free it... instead of freeing the butterfly, he kills the spider.  The protagonist is shocked and disturbed by this, but the villain responds by explaining how the spider will die if you rob it of its food.  In trying to free the butterfly, the protagonist is essentially killing the spider anyway. 

Basically... I like villains that can open your eyes to another perspective; especially if it's to the point that you're actually empathizing with their actions.

i agree with that. my favorite videogame villain is probably krelian from xenogears. for those who haven't played the game, his ultimate goal was to create a god and end all suffering, because he was hurt so much when his dead love died, and felt it was unfair that anyone should have to suffer at all. the player's team was against this because creating a god involved changing life too drastically for the people of the planet. if some players are or almost are on the side of the villain rather than of the hero, then it'll probably be a memorable villain.

Be careful of going too far when making the villain a sympathetic character, though. When a player empathizes with the antagonist much more than the protagonist, they might end up not wanting the protagonist to succeed. And if they don't want the protagonist to succeed, they might start to dislike helping the protagonist succeed--and, of course, "helping the protagonist succeed" is usually synonymous with playing your game. (Although not necessarily so, if you're careful).

I don't think this is so bad. I mean, it will surely be memorable if a player helps whoever he likes less to suceed. On the other hand, playing a game where you end up being the least likable character, will end up attracting different kind of players, so it's all good. You still got a target demographic.

 :nono:

Amnesia... :waaagh:

I CAN'T Believe it. It is so weird.

Yep, make the character first, and then they'll let you know if they're your protagonist's enemy. I'm working on one thing at the moment that has the main character investigating a death that (DUN DUN DUN) turns out to be a murder. Heading into it, I didn't know myself who'd done it, just that there was something 'off' about the family that lived in this particular house.

The family turned out to be pretty large, and as I added each member in, I found that some of them would be more sympathetic to the protagonist, a couple were hostile, a couple were scared, and one was - whaddayaknow - antagonistic. From there, the plot was following the characters.

It's certainly not the only way to write, and it might be unintuitive when writing a game, as they're generally about getting from state A to state B, not *who* is going from A to B. But I've found it interesting, and it's good to remind myself that if I'm stuck on plot I can ask the characters what happens.  :)

(Having a large range of characters in a given situation also lets you avoid total black/white good/evil stuff, as its easier to convey the range of possible reactions. That said, sometimes your theme requires dichotomy...)

 Make them Human.

 And by human, i mean to envoke such feeling and solitude towards him that thoughts  
 don't immidiatly come to us as instantly hateful;That behind such actions lies an
 indevidual-that can directly or indirectly be justified of his actions, and that such
 actions or throughts are natural processes.

 Not a Type;A great antagonist is not a pattern or group which you can lumb together and
 call them a common enemy.

 Not a Caricature;A fine crafted villain or a bad guy is by definition not a blank slate
 which you can fill up with ideologies and thoughts such that they envoke feelings of dread
 and laughter beyond human nature.

 The first one has never lived and the second one will never live.

 Beyond that what else you want to envoke with that villain is your concern.Make them
 sympathetic, make them apathetic but, my god, and this is not a call agaist common logic,
 make them human.

 P.S.:Unless they are not Homo Sapiens.From there you go into the realm of Sci-Fi or Fantasy.

I'm not a profesional writer, but I could tell you a few things I learned in the time:

FIRST:
-) Choose the subject of the story (Let's say the "theme" will be revenge)

-) Then create the avatar (But create it around the subject, give him an emotional need that motivate him to act, could be that he needs to pay for the surgery of his mother and he needs money, so he enters the army... or It's a girl who is trying to be appreciated in her school so she will start learning magic... NOT USE CLICHES like trying to conquer the world or I'm evil because well... I'm evil).

-) After you created the player's character (avatar), create an obstacle (not an enemy, an obstacle, like Poverty) that goes with the subject of the story.

-) With the obstacle, makes an antagonist that oposes the player but not because he's evil (REMEMBER, forget the clichés), but because the player it's trying to archieve something that will cause a harm or goes against the interest of the antagonist. (An example: The player will try to farm the biggest chicken to win the country fair so the antagonist wish to gain it too)

-) After you have those two character you will create the player and the antagonist team, designing the relationship of each character (Let's say the player has a sister but the sister is the girlfriend of the antagonist)

-) When designing characters, choose 4 traits of their personality (like: lazy, arrogant, vicious, sadistic) and some other characteristics (like: He likes to play baseball) and USE THIS TO CREATE THEIR DIALOG and BEHAVIOUR. (remember a smart guy that likes poetry will speak in Old english, a Cab man in NEW YORK maybe will speak very "vulgar" and cursing diferent than a priest)

-) Remember: When designing a team, neither the antagonist and the player should have an advantage, they should be equal, a soccer match (or fighting game) is fun because It's balanced.

-) Another rule: They should have the will to fight until the end, they should die before giving up (both the antagonist and player)

-) After that design their clothes based on their traits and the other characteristics.

-) Design also their movements, magic, like their clothes, maybe create a reason why he has that power, spell (a little of background).

AFTER THAT CREATE THE STORY.
-) With the character, create three steps or stages in the story.

-) First, The introduction: The world and characters is presented, their relationships, etc.
It should be the first 10-20% of the game.

-) Second, make a twist: Something happens that creates the emotional need of the character to act (not mandatory that the antagonist creates this situation)

-) After that, create the journey of the hero trying to solucionate his emotional need and the antagonist oposing him, clashing until you get the final showdown (CLIMAX).

-) After the Final Fight, you spend the last 10-20% of the game, showing the consequences of the story.

-) A Last rule: When making an scene, like a dialog, always think about creating conflict (clashing between characters), make them fight in the dialog (It helps to develop characters), make the characters in the dialog or acting throw darts to each other (in words or actions, remember when you joke with your friends?)

Well, I think that's all.

The most Interesting antagonist is one that you know little of, and see even less of. If you look at the movie Jaws, why is the shark scary, because you never see it until the end. Also look at Amnesia: The Dark Decent, you almost never come across the enemies in the game, and you don't hear from the main Antagonist till almost half way through the game. if you have the ability to fill in the gaps that exist in the story, the character becomes more menacing, since he is part your own creation and as such can scare you and get at you a lot more.