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Hey guys Need some feedback so here is Microgue!!


Basically I am at the point where I need to decide if this prototype is worth pursuing. A lot of this is repeated from my devlog so bear with me.

Now this build is an excellent vision of what the final game will be. It needs a lot of balance, which seems to be the main problem now, but all the combat is in. The player has two skills. these are built in for now but eventually the player will be able to choose which two they head into combat with.

Controls: (Updated)
click next to the player to move around, get to the 8th Floor and defeat the boss. Fireballs can be fired by clicking in the top corner and then clicking a direction.

no comment is to small. tell me everything.

eventually this will be an IOS game once I get sounds, music, and all that good stuff. also I will most likely add more content. new enemies/skills/locations. all that good stuff.

Aside from your hilarious typos, I'd say it's just way too difficult. And it's not difficult in the sense that it's hard to play or control, it just seems impossible to win. You're put into situations where you are unable to come out alive. That has been my experiences, at least.

I really like the retro graphics. I love roguelikes but I always wanted to play (or make) one that has a bit deeper tactical battle aspects. Although the game is minimalistic, I love the approach you've been taking. The game is a bit punishing, but once you get started it was rewarding.

It's hard to make perfect strategic situation, especially randomized, but the game got me thinking a few times while keeping it simple. The enemies felt well designed with the gameplay.

I'm not sure if it's a bug, but I did manage to ressurect once when knocked out by using spells. I was kinda pissed off when I died, early because it feels impossible to survive, but late one I felt that I made some mistakes, which is great. However, because of the linear and puzzle nature of the game (instead of more exploration/rpg) I didn't feel like starting over even though I really enjoyed the game. It's like the game isn't random or rewarding enough since it's not a fully featured rogue rpg but feel more like a puzzle game and puzzles have bad replayability (not sur I'm making sens). To be honest, I love how simple the game is, but I'm sure I'll be back for more when you add more content.

One other thing is I kinda wish we were able to outplay some enemies instead of running into them, but I'm not sure if the possibility to skip a round would ruin or make the gameplay too easy.

Hell, I'm gonna go try one more game :)

I enjoyed it. Loved the graphical style.

As a prototype, it's definitely worth continuing work on.

thanks guys.

jakman: yeah I guess it was later then I thought. Do you mean the situations where the player has to move forward and the enemy gets a hit.

Kasper: the skip turn made the game far to easy. I at one time thought of building each room as a premade puzzle actually, which still might be an option. Any suggestions on getting that strategic situations? can you give some examples?

True Valhalla thanks

A couple more questions. since the game's main focus is positioning yourself and the enemies, would skills that involve moving or manipulating the enemies be a better plan? A couple suggestions I had were giving the player some type of projectile allowing you to hit any enemy, this would be limited like the Mana. Another Idea was getting rid of Mana making the skills one time use for each island. so basically the player might have skills like throw rock, Skip Turn, Lunge (Attack Enemy and move into their space).

I really enjoyed this actually. It felt like it would work really well on a touch screen but that is just because of the controls. I'm not sure what they are saying about it being hard. Maybe I just got lucky but it was perfect difficulty for me. It was challenging but it felt fair.

I liked the white skeletons. I used their bones a lot to protect myself to make sure I didn't get surrounded. There was also the risk though because they can come back and attack me.

I think its definitely work pursuing more. It was fun and I can see how it can get really fun if you add more skills and enemies. More skills to position yourself would be good. Skills to teleport yourself or an enemy. Something along those lines would make things interesting.

I would leave the all skills use 1 mana thing in. It forced me to make hard decisions. If there were more skills then the decisions would be harder and more fun. Should I heal myself now or wait and save the mana to use my fire attack. It was fun and I enjoyed it! :)

Pemanent: the skeletons are my favorite.

thanks. next question. should mana potions be dropped? or perhaps you get one mana potion somewhere on the level at the start. this means you could only use one skill per island, unless you saved up. Another suggestion someone gave me was making the drops less random. like ever time you kill 5 guys a potion is dropped. it would make it easier to plan ahead with potions and also give some reason to kill enemies. also do you think two skills are enough? I was going to do 3, but I felt like 2 really limited you and forced you to think ahead.

I actually meant that it's difficult for the type of game/small level layouts/limited amount of spells, but the game succeds well at it.

I love the simple design and I'm sure you wan't the game to stay user friendly, but since the game is pretty fun, I just want to see a larger variety of possibilities for me to keep playing. It might be harder to keep the design clean and balanced, but a simple leveling system could do the trick (or some simple potion/item inventory instead of heal spell). Like for every level you get +1 max mana/hp and have to chose a new spell. Having a larger mana cap could also allow for different spell cost, for example a spell where you can create a wall would allow nice strategy but would never be as usefull as just healing all your life for the same price.

This is because, in roguelikes you gotta have that feeling 'oh, I have a good start I wanna survive', but in Microgue you often reach the hp/mana cap, and all you want is avoid tricky situations where you run out of mana.

Anyways, even simple as it is, once we get a clearer final goal and indication of how far you got, I'm sure it will be replayable/rewarding enough.

I would agree there, I was just killed because my starting move put me adjacent to 3 monsters.

I made it to the 5th screen!

Man I'm a sucker for those tightly put, checker-board shaded pieces of floating land. Everything fits so snugly.

looking forward to see further versions! My only suggestion at this point is thinking of a better name, MicRogue just doesn't charm as much as the game itself. Just to throw some ideas around for brainstorming: Nanogue, Roguetite..

I spent some time with the game, and have had some thoughts :

* the graphic style is really good. Retro is the (not so) new black in the app store and this is one of the best looking examples, with crude graphics that ooze charm and also make each enemy instantly recognizable

* Generally, the gameplay works well and reaches its goal (or what I perceived the design goal to be)

* That said, the game felt too generic : generic monsters (rats, skeletons, ...), generic spells (fireball + heal). Maybe try to add some elements that are more unique. The core gameplay is reasonable original, I really talking about flavor here.

* The start of each level is wrong: only one possible action (move right) and this single action can make you lose the game.

* I agree that some levels felt unwinnable. Sometimes because of the problem stated above, sometimes for other reasons. Maybe it's because I'm a poor player. But maybe not. If some levels are indeed unwinnable, maybe you should refine your level generation algorithm. I don't know how easy it would be to code a competent ai player, maybe use this solution :
       a. code an ai player
       b. generate a level
       c. make the ai player play the level
       d. if ai player dies, discard the level and generate another.

I hope those two hunderdths of a dollar were helpful.

You make it sound so easy  :durr:

Having the monsters on the left side of the screen at the start of a level is perhaps a bad idea. It demands you sacrifice a life just to start playing. I also felt that unless I had magic, I was pretty much fucked, because I had to repeatedly run into the fist of monsters that were in the way.

Notice that I also said

That said, now that i think of it, because the player has at most 6 possible moves each turn (left, right, up, down, heal, fire), such an ai player could easily be coded. If the monster's moves are purely determined by the player's movement, I'd say it's almost childish if you have ever touched ai programming. A max tree should do. By max tree, I mean a tree with branches corresponding to the player's moves. You don't need branches for the monster's moves, because being deterministic, there would only be one anyway.

If there is a random component to monster moves, it's a bit more challenging but also not so difficult. A standard min-max tree seems at first sight like it could do the job.

The evaluation function should be easy to design, taking into account, for example, a player score (a function of remaining HP and MP) and a monster score (sum of remaining monster's values ex : rat = 1; skeleton = 2, etc.)

You just run the algorithm on the starting position, and then take the resulting evaluation fuction value, which gives a good indication of whether the level is too easy or difficult.

Actually, if the monsters move at random, better than mini-maxing (which would give a result for a worst-case scenario) would be to take an average of the eval function values for each possible combination of monster moves.

Kapser I dont know if I could do a leveling mechanic. the player goes through so quickly, that it might seem tacked on. The +1 Health/Mana could work. but would it be better to do it by island or by enemies killed?

OddGoo Yeah the name has been a sticking point. some people like it and some hate it. and I change depending on the day it seems. I probaly will end up changing it, but to what I dont know. maybe Tiny Quest or something. get away from the Rogue use as it wont make much sense to players who are unfamiliar with roguelikes, and for players who are, they might find that it has to little in common for the name to work.

Ooops So do you think I just need a more interesting blend of Enemies? or are their skills what seem generic?

I dont think I have the skill to code in an AI to solve the level though. I am fairly new at procedural stuff and its all a bit over my head. I know the AI wouldn't work. It might work now, but as I go and add more Skills the code would have to be adapted for every kind of skill and some are not the usual stuff of doing damage, but stuff like hurting any monster on the board, swapping places, and stuff like that. One earlier idea mentioned before was building a huge amount of islands. they are easy enough to make, but then the problem arises as I don't know what skills the player has, so all islands would need to be fairly generic and solvable without any skills, and then that raises the problem of how much damage should I plan for the player to take? should they be able to get through every island without a scratch? I do agree that the algorithm of level placement needs work though.

Right now levels are generated this way.
1. a Block is randomly placed
2. a number of tiles is chosen
3. those tiles are placed adjacent to current tiles until there are none left.
4. Bridges are Added
5. All Open Spaces are noted and randomly chosen for which ones to have monsters on them.

so any suggestions in fixing this bare-bones system?

Does this mean I won?  :biglaff:

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/46018476/Misc/mr.png)

yes, followed promptly by losing.

Hehe, I actually got through 4-5 more levels like that. I think when the rooms are full like that, the game starts placing enemies at the 0,0 coordinates (you can see something weird behind my HP).

By island sounds good to me. Well, if balancing stays manageable.

Works great. Little annoying that you have to click one square infront of you.

Thanks guys everyone has been really helpful. Quick question I would like to know. about how often do you actually use your skills. is it maybe like 3 times a game? I am thinking of adding something for finishing a level and it might be that skills are one time use. but on to the next island you can recharge one skill or add 1 max health. Just wondering how often people actually use them.

Since this has been posted up I have been adding in the stuff I knew I would need, but didn't put in yet. Now an Island can either be the normal Field we have now, or snow. each area will have its own enemies and each enemy now has a rarity.

Verticalvertex: do you mean you wish you could just click in a general direction to move that way? I do plan on implementing that soon.

I don't know why one would make this instead of a full-fledged roguelike, with a command for every letter of the keyboard and tons of obscure systems. Or at least, something along the lines of Chunsoft's Mystery Dungeon series. It's not like the iPhone can't handle such games in a turn-based setting--just bring up a touch keyboard or a large menu when necessary. What you've got isn't unplayable, but it's piddly and unsubstantial. I don't want any single-screen environments that I can see everything of from the beginning, either. A more sophisticated level generation system and nuanced enemy behavior would also be very welcome.

You CAN make this thing work. It's just going to take some serious effort if you don't want to end up on the smartphone trash heap. Immerse yourself in Nethack, Angband, and ADOM for insight and inspiration.

You realize that out of your total of 5 posts, 4 have been negative reaction to game projects, 3 of them being borderline insulting? Also such comments are not very constructive. Gee, what you want here is a game of another genre. It's about as helpful as saying: " I'd much prefer playing a racing game".

@ orhers: Am I feeding a troll here?

I don't think he's a troll, I just think he is giving his opinion more value than it's worth.
He'll fit in just fine around here.  :durr:

The perfect roguelike would be between those two. I want a roguelike with deep strategic thinking, but I don't like how much of them are not user friendly.
The game is too simplistic, but I think he's on to something. The prototype is more fun than a lot of roguelikes I played.

Seriously a game gotta damn good for getting to learn what every freaking key of the keyboard are used for.

To awnser the question, I use the heal spell pretty often but I try always using it in an optimal way to finish the level maxed out. The fire spell, I only use it when I'm about to die (which doesn't happen often) or when there's like 3 mana potions on the floor. I think the heal spell is a bit too good, not for the way the game is balanced right now, but if you want to make a really fun spell system. (for the same mana cost, fire will be worth it in very few occasions)

Just make you and the creatures have different move ranges per turn. I.e. you can move 2, some monsters can move 1, others 2 or more.. That would add more positioning and tactical play.

Would you prefer Angry Birds? A large part of the enjoyment from a good roguelike comes from gradually figuring out all the minutae of its mechanics. If you're merely running around and stabbing at slimes in tiny little dungeons ad infinitum, you're only boring yourself. In terms of raw mechanical detail, ADOM, Nethack, and Elona are some of the most complex and intricate games ever made. These are games truly meant to engross, entertain, and engage the player's mental capacities, not to stave away boredom on a train commute.

What genre does Ooops think this game belongs to? Isn't "Rogue" right in the title? He's got a point, though: at the moment, it's only complex enough to pass as an awful SRPG with one unit. Its prospects aren't looking too good: Rogue, the genre's namesake that's over THIRTY YEARS OLD now, actually has a lot more going on than this modern interpretation: even hallways between individuated rooms!

I give credit where credit is due. As of late, the "indie games" community has given a free pass to many lazily drawn and coded games with little redeeming value: Passage, Meat Boy, and Knytt Stories among them. But I believe that each game's qualities should be judged against the entire history of the medium, not merely the last eight years of small independent PC development. Cave Story was made by one man in his bedroom, probably with no budget at all! Blaming game design flaws on a lack of staffing or funds, or forgiving them for the same reason, is inexcusable. with I find comments like "enjoyed this game, woohoo!" to be far less constructive than specific examples of what I found wrong or inadequate about games. We're here to improve our games, not pat each other on the back.

And an actual troll would have said "lol dis gaem sux."

It's darling.  I just wish I had more choice of where to go.

Nobody's going to force you, or anyone else, to play this.

So what? Someone else is going to. And as more low-quality "roguelikes" like this are made, the more accepted this kind of lazy game design is going to become. If it becomes the standard for the genre, than far fewer people are going to be exposed to its defining classics: Nethack, Shiren, and ADOM. Especially with the uber-prevalence of the iPhone, it's just unhealthy for these kinds of games to run wild.

We've already seen this happen to the platformer genre: why do you think Locomalito's excellent Ghosts 'n Goblins clone Maldita Castilla (http://www.locomalito.com/maldita_castilla.php) is getting so little attention? Because the grand tradition of long, detailed action-adventure sidescrollers with baroque graphics that must be played from start to finish straight through is being abandoned. It's being replaced by bite-sized "masocore" abortions like Super Meat Boy, where all difficulty is negated by the abundance of quicksave respawn points with infinite lives, and the graphics aren't even worth mentioning. Not to mention that Team Meat are completely incompetent programmers, as the MySQL fiasco with Super Meat Boy made clear.

I'm trying to spur the developer on to gain some ambition, utilize the talent I hope he has, and make something at least modestly great. I will never grow tired of abusing this example, because it's so painfully relevant: Cave Story was made by one man in his bedroom with no money.

Thanks guys:

Kasper: Thanks for the feedback on the skills. I am really thinking that they dont add as much as they take away. I think figuring out a way to give the player so more Choice in their combat would help. It seems that I am making two games at the moment. the first is this game where you use skills and the second is one where you use the monster deaths. I really need to focus on one or the other and I want the second one.

happymonster: thats actually in interesting idea. I am reminded of some of the fantasy flight board games. I think Descent has that, but don't quote me. basically the player has two points per turn. Moving costs a point, and attacking costs a point, and there is a special move that costs two points.

failrate: I agree the player is usually forced into situations they wish to not find themselves in. I am trying my best to list these out so I can build a system or add mechanics to fix these. The main one now is spawning with enemies right next to the bridge.

So the next plan is to set up several new combat systems. I will be testing them out on paper first, whatever survives will then get a engine test. I hope to find something that gives the player more choice without throwing in everything and the kitchen sink.

Have you thought about having the damage / health statistics be less rigid? I.e. have a bit more randomness on the calculations so you have a chance to kill things easier, or be killed quicker!

Actually I thought about that, But then I am afraid that people will want to increase their chances of hitting, which means I need to start doing stat tracking and I was afraid that it was this slippery slope.

Edit: Also I am compiling a list if "Situations" that makes the player feel like they are forced. below is a good example.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/a2rv9f.png)

I am hoping by finding these situations I can figure out exactly how the player is being put into these situations and what ways they have to escape them.

Also Any Ideas for similar games to play would be appreciated.

Felix0: I agree that games aren't evolving in the right direction, but your examples aren't that great. Knytt is also made by one guy and achieve what it's trying to. Of course lot of platformers evolved into checkpoint type systems because players are more easily bored with the overwhelming amount of games out there. This isn't lazy design, it's just the right design choice for SMB because of the nature of the gameplay/levels, and I love this game almost as much as Ghost'N Goblins. For Microgue, of course making this is less work than making a super complex Rogue, but it does what it's supposed to for an iOs game. It does need some more work, but it actually does a better job than a lot of Rogues I played with lot more feature, especially the ones I played on iphone.

It's not important if you don't call this a Rogue, it's what's it's inspired from. Minimalistic design might be lazy design but isn't bad design, it's just going for a more chess-like direction, which is not what you're looking for. The game is designed to be ported on iOs and I enjoyed it although I normally hate casual games.
I'm saying the challenge is to make a game that is easy to pickup and hard to master, not that I want Angry Bird kind of shit..

I have played a few roguelikes and didn't find most of them so deep. I think it's time for me to look for the classics because I know the potential of this genre. Altho I have an issue with ASCII graphics..

Anyways, it's the wrong place to debate this anyways.

I wouul like this to stay somewhat on topic instead of switching into a favorite roguelike ant. but try out Brogue (https://sites.google.com/site/broguegame/). its ASCII but still looks really good.

Jason: I suppose I'm biased as I love Chaos (originally on the ZX Spectrum) and have done two remakes of it, but that is the direction I naturally would want to move this towards. That means different movement amounts, more randomness in if attacks do damage (or kill) or not.

It's still a simple system, but makes a lot of 'emergent' gameplay without too many stats.

I enjoyed the mechanics, but I did feel like each layout was almost predetermined.  Any time there is 1 space between me and him, or there is a diagonal I'm going to take a hit.  Taking this further, any time it would take an odd number of turns before I can attack, before taking into account enemy death events, I'm going to take a hit.  The Skeleton helps to provide a sort of 'wait a turn', and the zombie(?) helps too with the freeze.  The fact that each screen is so small makes this worse, as any time I can start to setup a plan based on kill order, it's a new area and I end up taking predetermined hits again.  I don't feel I have enough control over how each screen is going to play out.  The obvious stuff (Wait a turn option stuff) would make the game too easy, but something like a can move two spaces in 1 direction once a screen, or can choose to go first or let the enemies go first so get to feel that it's not as predetermined.

Maybe that was the intention and it's more about timing potions and mana abilities, but then the early game becomes a dice roll before you start collecting mana.

yeah currently with the Fixed Attack system the game feels more like a puzzle then a regular dungeon crawl. So I added the posibility of Misses into the combat and it feels more like the mini dungeon crawl I started to make. I have added a Stat called Attack. It determines if you hit an enemy or not. You always do 1 damage though if a hit is successful. I wanted to keep stats to a minimum.

Try It (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Microuge/Microgue_006.swf)

Right now the player has an attack value of 2. the higher that is the better chance you have of hitting an enemy. it makes the game feel very different, which I really dig. It makes it feel like the player has a fighting chance, and if I add something to help their stats (Health and Attack) they will feel like they have much more agency right now the numbers break down like this

Miss Percentage.
Attack 1: %50
Attack 2: %33
Attack 3: %25
Attack 4: %21
Attack 5: %17
Attack 6: %15
Attack 7: %13

I take a random number from the attack number and if its 0 its a miss. So an attack of 3 is 0,1,2,3. so a 25% chance of pulling a zero. the only thing is I like the Curve this gives, but I would like it if it started a little lower. maybe even like at 80%. A monster with high HP, but a terrible attack rate would be Cool. Any Suggestions on ways to code this differently?

Edit: Also I like the combat so Much I might go back to my original idea of the 5th Island being just one big Boss Monster.

I haven't tried the game yet, but i did a really quick edit on your first screenshot (excuse any poor quality please :P):
(http://i44.tinypic.com/x6j400.png)>(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16782518/Microgue%20Side%20Edit.png)

I added some side edge detailing to the tiles, makes them look a bit less like they came out of some sort of island tile factory or somesuch :) Take a look at the third set of images in this tutorial (http://gas13.ru/v3/tutorials/sywtbapa_de-mystifying_greats_2.php) for what I'm talking about.

Edit: after trying it, I have to say that this version is a bit boring. I mean, you enter a level, start attacking them, and hope the RNG is grateful enough to give you lucky hits. I don't necessarily think a slightly more complex system would be all bad. Perhaps one where you always do damage but that's variable based on RNG and/or monster armor levels?

Also, I can has health bar over enemies? :3

Man that edging looks really good. I had originally planned to do it, but the levels end up in such crazy shapes, that I was pretty sure it was going to be hard to do. I will have to figure out how to make that, cause it looks pretty good.

Well I cant really do anything about damage amounts, without giving the characters massive amounts of health, because if I made damage taken random, taking 2 damage instead of 1 when you only have 4 health, would be devastating. The Player will most likely have a much better hit stat in the actual game though. I will also add ways to increase it.

All you'd really need is to add a couple more types of your base tile (one with left-craggy-edge, right-craggy-edge, and one with both edges). It's just modification of the very side set of edge pixels plus an addition of one column for the protruding rock. Here's a mockup of one of the more unusual shapes for ya:

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16782518/Microgue%20Side%20Edit%202.png)

I mean, there are a few edge cases to handle (lol), but thats it.

This is a game of calculation, random miss % would be infuriating.

yeah. there lies the problem. its a game at a fork in the road leading to two very different games.

1. Straight battle.
 this makes the game seem more like a puzzle game. the player is given an island with monsters and they most find their way through it. the problem arises here is that the player can be given any number of unwinnable scenarios. I am not a good enough programmer to build an algorithm that creates these puzzles as there are two many random variables to add to the equation, so the best course of action would be to construct them by hand. but even then I would need to remove more variables to make the puzzles self containted. health, skills, items would have to stay on the floor in which they were picked up.

2. Chance of Miss and stats.
this makes the game feel more of an RPG. we can have carry over stats from island to island.
and the level creation algorithm feels a little more forgiving. Game also can curse you with poor luck though.

At this moment I just don't think doing straight calculations is the way yo go. the game will always curse the player with unwinnable situations. Any thoughts though. I have not really committed to one way or the other. the Code for misses is two lines easily commented out. So if you have suggestions I would love to hear them. I also think I might do some mockups of the straight puzzle game and paper prototype it out.

Problem with the hit-and-miss thing is that it's too costly to miss as it is. Way too much at stake to make it fair. Instead of randomness giving the game an extra flair it becomes a game of luck, which is frustrating.

actually Kasper made a suggestion of enemies missing, but not the main character. which I think is actually a pretty good idea. it means the player always knows how much damage they will give, and how much damage they will take at most.

This game is awesome, will play more and tell you what I think

It is a promising game, it's very accessible & with fitting & consistent graphics!

I don't think there should be a (strong) reason to kill enemies. If the game rewards the player for staying out of fights instead of just mauling down all enemies, then the player gets choices that have clear significance (the reward for playing it right is less hp lost) and demand skill; the game really needs more such choices.

Sounds good.

Thoughts:

* As has been said, there are few turns in the game where you can make a choice that is not obvious or irrelevant; I guess this will improve in time as new spells/abilities are added (how about: swapping your position with enemy? Or enemy ability that makes him swap position with you every time he attacks you? I think abilities that concern positions in general would fit with the small levels of Microgue)

* Reading this thread, I understand that there were spells & mana potions & more than 2 types of enemies in the game previously (before microgue_006), did you remove them?

* Bug, potions in the air:
(http://i.imgur.com/9amXI.png)

everything is still going and I decided to post a build. Its a huge Update. I swapped out the island for a more conventional dungeon and changed the tile size from 16 to 10.

(http://i39.tinypic.com/20tgpck.png)

Also the levels zig zag. the player is not always moving from left to right which bothered me in the first build. I like the zig zag now because it feels like the player is having to move more.

Try It Out (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21825227/Microuge/Microgue_007.swf)

Right now I have a base tower all set up. I am using a combination of static design and random generation to make it easier for the player. Right now its 3 floors of fighting. the 4th floor will be a rest much like the town structure in Shiren the Wanderer. its then followed by 3 more floors of monsters and then the boss.

Also you can shoot a fireball, by clicking the fireball icon in the upper right, and then a direction.

the 4th floor is empty for the moment but you are fully healed on reaching it. and the game will end when you defeat the blob on floor 8. 

let me know what you think. I would really like as much feedback as possible. I think I am getting closer to having a final design idea. I just need to work out a lot of the kinks in the current design.

I couldn't get past level 7. Ran out of fireballs and there were too many enemies. A witch and an orc killed me, maybe I should have been wiser(they both attacked me).

So far I've made it to the 8th floor once. Sometimes I just get screwed over and can't make a move that lets me not get hit, even from spawn (enemy spawns diagonally from me and I'm boxed in, my only choice is to move next to it, goblin right next to entrance). Also, it sometimes produces tight corridors where the only strategy is to move back and forth and wait. It is pretty enjoyable though.

The only other thing I have to say at the moment is that while most of the art is pretty neat, the player character looks a bit like a horse with a giant human head (though I might be nuts) and the fireball looks like a slice of pizza.

I like it! Nice visual style.

I'd love to see keyboard controls and a way to skip (wait) a turn without moving.

thanks. I probably wont add keyboard support as its mainly an iOS build. I thought about adding a skip turn, but cant really see anything in favor of it. a lot of times I feel like its in there the same way food clocks are. that people put them in because Rogue had them. I think with such a small level that the skip turn does nothing to make the game more challenging. in a lot of roguelikes the player will mash skip turn until the monster gets next to them and then the battle starts. its just used as a way to get the monster closer so you ge the first strike. the waiting idea for healing is neat, but wouldnt work here as there is no downside to is. I did think about this and cam up with two ideas, but neither worked for this.

1. the player has a food clock that can not be recharged. each turn ticks down the food clock once. a skip turn ticks it down 5. the player can skip all they want, but it might cost them in the end.

2. the player had a block option. they could only use it 5 times, and while blocking they took no damage.

Very nice and polished, and instantly enjoyable.

I had to click on the number to cast fireball - is this intended? Feel like I should be able to just click the icon.

Skipping a turn, as mentioned by others, would be nice.

Maybe I just suck at Rogue-likes, but I had no chance of getting beyond level 7 or so. Too many enemies, no more fireballs, and low health. I do like the simplicity, but are there health/fireball pickups anywhere? Given there's only one exit each level, I had little incentive to go back...like I was definitely gonna die unless I just got lucky. I realize Rogue-likes are meant to have that element of chance, but they usually have a good amount of agency and strategy as well.

yeah I need to Extend the Fireball Activating, but I am waiting to see if I change how to activate it first, since I am in the process of designing the spell system. As for difficulty, I am going to add health pickups, but I cant add them until I finish the spell system as the magic and inventory system will be intertwined. I am hoping to get them in there soon.

Love the art style.

The hard bit with roguelikes is finding that balance between increasing the player's power and increasing the difficulty they face.  The thing that seems to be missing here is that the difficulty increases as you delve deeper, but the player's power hasn't increased to be able to deal with that difficulty.  I know you're working on health pickups, a spell system and inventory, so I'm sure this will address this area.  It will be good to try to keep the simplicity you have in place with the interface and still add more depth.

There's a lot that just feels right with this game. I can see wasting lots of time with quick little dungeon romps. 

Well, yeah, pretty much every turn based tactical combat game has a "wait" command, because "stand your ground and let the enemy draw closer" is a useful thing to do. Plus it feels weird and frustrating having to run back and forth from square to square, it doesn't make any sense that a guy with a sword can't stand still for a moment. If you do decide that element is central to your gameplay, you should at least think of some little bit of narrative hand-waving to explain it.

But I can think of a number of ways to make skipping a turn a less attractive option. Maybe have some evil black mist that follows you down the staircase from level to level, creeping closer every x turns. Or have a speed/initiative mechanic where moving into melee range doesn't always mean the other side gets the first attack.

your game is really-really AWESOME!

Dinofarm's next game Auro is also doing away with the skip-turn option.

Consider chess, do you get to skip a go in chess?

The skip turn mechanic always has a counter balance because it essentially is cheating. If you remove the skip turn cheat, you don't need the extra complication of a counter balance.

Well, unless you are down to just your king, you can have a specific piece hold it's position. I'd also argue that chess isn't a representation of tactical combat in the same way that a roguelike is; chess is more abstract.

Not having a skip turn action means that instead there is a "wiggle back and forth" action that feels fiddly and doesn't add much tactical depth.

That's opinion, of course, but I DO think that if you are going to leave out a skip turn button, the game narrative should explain it somehow ("this isn't a dungeon explorer, it's a flying robot").

yeah, but I think if you start explaining the "no skip button" logic in game that opens up other problems. because if you get a skip button, why shouldn't the enemies then that leaves you both standing one space a part yelling names at each other. although we did have a rather lengthy talk about a skip go function here (http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=24470.0).

in other news. players have much more direct AI. they no longer wander but path right at you. I will hopefully be able to post a build this weekend, but Have a friend coming in town to visit so it might be later monday night.

I've got admit I didn't find myself enjoying this new build as much as the early ones.

I disliked that the enemies were impacting the game more than I was. In the early builds those enemies that paralyzed everything gave me tactical options beyond the Fireball, and the skeleton bones allowed me to impact the game board. With both of those missing, world interaction for the player has dropped a lot.

In this build, the enemies positioned me (the swap enemy) and I was forced into a lot of situations where I couldn't play a "perfect" game, in that Orcs (in particular) would never move next to me first. So less control of the environment and the enemies was a big negative for me. It was quite limited with the Fireball, paralyzing enemies and skeleton bones, but now with just the Fireball it's far less fun.

The change in resolution was also a step backwards in my opinion, but I'm sure you have your reasons for that. The art style is still very nice, and balance was OK-ish.

thanks True valhalla. Actually those enemies haven't bee removed from the design, just taken out for the current build. I do agree that the strategy the player has isn't what it used to be, and I am working hard on getting it back in but refined and much better, then what was in prior. if you have opinions though, feel free to join in this discussion here (http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=24470.0) we are pretty much having this exact conversation. Also the levels might be getting slightly bigger, but I am still on the fence about it.

Really cute, very fun.  I can certainly see this working well on mobile devices, if that's the intention.

I've got to add another vote for a 'wait' option (maybe by clicking on the player, if you don't want to add another button).  I found it frustrating (not in a good way) having to pace back and forth to try and get the first hit in on a monster.  (Given how high the stakes are, allowing the monster to have the first hit is really not an option.)

I wasn't a fan of the ongoing poison damage, if that's what it was.  (Something invisible seemed to 'hit' my character occasionally.)  More indication of what was going on in that case would have been nice.

As others have said, the game leaves the player very little choice on what to do.  (I didn't play the earlier build, so I wasn't expecting the game to be particularly strategic.)  Maybe you could emphasize the idea that the game is more about chance than strategy: make it very random but very quick to play, like a slot machine.  (I gather they're quite popular. ;) )  For instance, things like the type of spells(/number of fireballs) you get at the start, or even your character's class, could be randomized.  Anyway, just an idea.

Awesomely awesome game :D I'm in love with the graphics and just the simplicity of it all :) The randomness gives it a fresh feel. Great Job!  :monoclepop:

I just played again, and I wanna share some new thoughts: As some others have said, the lack of a "wait" option is actually the core of this game's strategy! It plays more like a block pushing puzzle game, where I'm basically trying to move myself so I can hit them before they hit me. So the strategy is largely about spatial planning. And plus, even if there was a "wait" option, the enemy AI is a bit unpredictable, so it's not like they would just run at you.

Anyway, this is quite simple and fun for a 2-5 minute play session. Perfect for mobile I guess :) I'm sure you'll be adding more stuff to it - you definitely have more work to do - but I'll be keeping an eye on this! Good job, bro.  :toastR:

I just played MicRogue and it is great! But game need "wait" option (as any roguelike with 4-directional movement)..and sometimes i was getting to an empty level without any enemies.

.. and game would be even more great if levels will be more random.

Stevesan: I actually have made several changes, all towards enforcing the spatial puzzle idea. the Major one is the dumping of the random AI. Now the enemies path right at you, but you are right, since combat is so basic the game is all about the movement.

alexbard: Yeah I understand that many people want a wait command, but if this game did have one it would make the game far to easy. Especially with the newer AI, it makes the enemies like a conga line where they just step up to get smacked. it does make sense for many other roguelikes, but the costs are not there. usually a roguelike with a wait command has less impact on the game play. Wait commands have a cost associated with them. each turn costs something, usually from your Food bar. so in a normal game you can wait, but it does end up costing you turns later. I dont have a food bar, so that makes the wait command have no cost. Also usually wait commands are used to get a first strike, which makes sense, but for my game you do not only get first strike, you get the only strike. most enemies in roguelike have more HP then taking one hit. which means I would need to change all my current stats. Another thing is just because you have first strike, doesn't mean you will actually connect as most games have miss percentages.

so a normal wait command doesn't work because there is no disadvantage and to big an advantage. But that said I do understand why exactly people want one. its basically because you end up in situations where you must step into a monsters path and must take damage. this is unfair to the player and they should always have a way of dodging that. so I am currently reworking the combat to counteract this problem. I hope that when I have fixed it, the player will not need the skip turn command, if they plan their movement out.

Removing the randomness would be cool, but I'd say don't make everyone just path at you. Obviously the 'swapping' eye shouldn't just do that. It'd be cool to have various enemies have different - but not random - patterns, like PacMan's ghosts.

And I do like how combat is pretty damn deterministic. I'm not a huge of randomness in my games.

Really enjoyed the game. I like roguelikes.
It has an approachable, and nice simple gameplay, it's great.

More dungeons, weapons, enemies and a shop. And you might have a quite addictive game :D

I have a lot of fun playing the recent updates (v.15): it's really addictive! it's more strategic since there are no fireballs, but defeat more than 3 immortal skeletons in a room is nearly impossible, and sometimes, I am stuck by these skeletons...
(http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s446/Justessay/microgue_v15_stuck.png)

i like it a great deal. As stevesan said it feels a lot like a "movement puzzler" so why not play with that a bit more? certain skills (with cooldowns or something), like a dash that moves you in a straight line until you hit something, or one that lets you move and hit, one that moves you diagonally. Could be a bad idea but you know brainstorming and all that. =)
But my biggest "issue" is that a mistake screws you over too much. I can get down to zero health in the span of one level too easily and whats worse is that it can feel like it hasn't been 100% my own mistake. Perhaps a way to replay a level or something but i wouldn't know how to implement it so it fits with the theme of the game.
I don't like the enemy behaviour or i don't understand the rules, which is perhaps the same thing. For a while i thought when the rats see you they flee or something which was nice because it gave the game more depth because i could calculate how they would move (or so i thought, pattern recognition and so forth). So something like that for the enemies, simple rules, the ogre will always come for you, rats don't etc

edit: I have only just seen the official devlog. I seem to be a bit late to the party (I played version 007)

Actually - it might help to either roll over (or on mobile devices to hold down) on a monster and it will show you the tiles it can move into.

I like it!
Problems comes from empty rooms :O nothing to do, you must avoid it