TIGSource Forums

Harvest has been cloned by the Casual Collective (makers of Desktop TD and Flash Elements TD). I feel kind of upset now, but I guess it'll pass. You find their version of the game here:

http://www.casualcollective.com/games/The_Space_Game

What an incredibly unique and non-generic name for the game they came up with  ::).

And seriously, you shouldn't feel upset about someone cloning your game, you should feel flattered.

Yeah... well... it just feels weird. Like... they're probably gonna earn more money when they put the game on Kongregate, Candystand, Mochi etc, than we have. Although, that's our fault, I guess.

What I'm trying to say is that this is not a tribute game. It's a commercial game. David Scott thought to himself that "this game could be earned money on," not that he wanted to show his appreciation to us.

EDIT: thewreck had a good point on IRC. We should be glad that it's possible to clone the game. It's just not another TD game :)

You make a game with a novel concept. They make an exact copy. What's your legal recourse?

Take a lesson from the land of the free, Jeb. Take a lesson, and then sue some asses.

Hell, I know the internet is supposed to be some kind of cesspit of evil, but you could send them an e-mail requesting them to take it down. Or just admit that it's a tribute to your game. Or you could demand Royalties! Don't do nothing, though. Stand up for your intellectual property!

It's not his intelectual property. You can't own gameplay mechanics, even if you are the one that came up with them. I don't think any of you guys, who make platformers, had ever any problems with Nintendo saying: "Hey! You cloned Mario!!! Take it down!!!".  ::)

Games are being cloned all the time. In fact, many great games from this very website could pass as clones of some retro genres (shmups, platformers). Of course, in this case it's a pretty shameless 1:1 clone (more like 1:0.1 judging by quality, but meh), but it's nothing too weird.
I would say Jeb can be proud that he invented a mechanic worth cloning.

I'm a massive Harvest fan, but anyone can see that a lot of work went into making this and it's a pretty damn good product. It's really impressive IMO.

Never! I demand Justice!  >:(

The problem with using platforming as an example is that it's a pretty general game mechanic.

If I asked for a platformer where you run and jump, I wouldn't get any good answers; however, if I asked for a platformer where you could hold a button to rewind time, most people would probably answer "Braid" in a heartbeat.

Using the general ideas of a genre is fine; copying the specific ideas of other games is not.

That being said, I also think Jeb should be proud of designing this game mechanic, but IMO he should get some sort of recognition for doing the original concept.

OMG!!!  :handmoneyL: :gentleman: :handthumbsupR:

Don't get me wrong - I too think it's not 'fine' in the common sense, and it definitely lowers my personal respect for the developers. It's not even because of cloning - it's because they didn't even attempt to improve anything.
I'm just saying that it's not like Jeb has any means of taking any action nor he should be upset about the whole thing too much.

ach, that must be annoying indeed :(

(I haven't played harvest; but if it is very very similar then would probably would have recourse to legal action.  it might be worthwhile to check with a lawyer if you can be bothered.)

That or Prince of Persia.

I will not take any legal action, the games are not THAT similar and he hasn't used any Harvest content (which actually CAN be copyrighted). It's just that... somebody made a flash interpretation of Harvest without giving us credit, or even letting us know.

As Alex says, the flash game is quite well-made and has a lot of features. It's also funny because we talked about being cloned while we were making Harvest (like back in 2007), since we were public about the development and having open beta tests. What we said was, "well, this game is a lot harder to clone than it appears at a glance". What we based that on was how the game handled the massive amounts of energy sparks and enemies at the same time.

This problem would be apparent to anybody developing in flash. I mean... if you're trying to clone the game using C++, you may not discover that it's a problem until it's too late, but in flash you know you can't handle those entities already before you begin making the game. In other words, you need to re-design the game to get around the problem, and that is what David Scott has done successfully. He's using a energy grid with "routers" instead of energy sparks.

In that sense, he has taken a game idea, adjusted it for his needs and released it. That happens a lot in the world of game development. It just startled/shocked me a bit when a friend linked me to the game.

That's totally shameless. >:(

A Nitrome/Squidy style front page post calling them out would serve them right, I think...

Hey, while we're discussing this, a link to your original game would be sweet. You only linked to their game. You missed an opportunity to plug your game with a "Hey, compare ours to this cheep rip off".

Haha, I had forgotten about that. Those were the days :)

Cymon: Heh yeah... Well, here it is, http://www.oxeyegames.com/harvest

Sucks when people take a commercial game and release free competition to it :(

This post & raising a fuss about it elsewhere is only going to promote theirs even more. Fight fire with fire IMO - clone yourself ASAP (if you're able to) and get it out there before theirs is too well known

Yeah, you are right. I want people that are playing their game to know about ours, not the other way around :)

I feel really stupid because we had the chance to make an iphone version last summer, but I was too bored (or burned out actually) to get the thumb out of my ass.

No time like the present!

Good game!

Arrgh... I commented on Casual Collective's blog, but my comment was put on hold to be approved. It took some while, so I thought they maybe hadn't noticed it yet, but now they've approved some other guy's comment. In other words, they are giving me the silent treatment! :( My post wasn't even inflamatory, ranting or bashing, I was just pointing out that I had wished that they had told me about it.

I want this situation to yield something positive for me too, but I can't figure out how to do that.

EDIT: The thing that upsets me the most is that this kind of behaviour is like some tiny kind of EA.
And they're well-set too. Source (http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/11/18/guys-behind-ridiculously-addictive-flash-games-launch-the-casual-collective/)

I do feel flattered. Also now that Harvest has been cloned it feels like Harvest is a concept in its own and not another TD clone (which it never was intended to be).
However I do feel a bit sad that we didn't make a flash version first.
Also it's kinda sad that they remove our comments on their blog even though they are positive responses to their game.

Personally I would never ask for any royalties or ask them to take the game down. It's a tribute, even if they don't even mention us (and they don't have to).

Kinten: your comment was approved :o Maybe because you didn't include any links of any kind.

Lame, man. :( I'm sorry to hear you got ripped off like that.

I'm curious to see if you get any response from them regarding your enquiries, please keep us updated.

Cloning is one of those difficult inbetween subjects. On one hand, most games are essentially clones of other games, on the other, when do you reach that point that you can define something as original, or at least, that it stands on its own 2 feet.

And of course, how do you enforce and legal proceedings on an international scale...

I was talking to some fellow devs about trademarks of game titles, and even then, it is really only a deterrant, because it would cost so much money, with no guarantees, to try and enforce it.

So the question I pose to the community is:

Where is the tipping point at which you can then call your IP original?

A little birdy told me Dyson was a lot like Galcon (http://www.galcon.com/).

I don't want to buy Galcon to find out.

Thoughts from people who have played both?

geeze you can just download the demo (http://www.galcon.com/classic/index.html)

mechanically, they're quite similar, though dyson's are paced around 5 to 10 times more slowly, and has two different unit types, and a couple of other things I can't think off off-hand probably.

I don't mind cloning of gameplay mechanics, ideas, or whatnot. That's natural. It's when it gets into cloning level layouts that it's pretty despicable (unless it's like, a satire or something). E.g. Zuma cloned the actual level layouts of Puzz Loop. I'd say that when something feels like a weird unlicensed port of another game rather than a variant of another game, it's copied too much.

Right, but in this case it's an exact copy of the core idea and of each mechanic right down to the damn menu layout. However well it may be done, it's still a transparent rip off of someone else's hard work without giving so much as a word of thanks in the credits.

Considering how incredulous people were about all those Crayon Physics rip-offs, I'm kinda surprised people are so mellow about this.

...

>:(:handshakeR:

About which in particular? I think I missed something in the thread.

Oh, seems I missed the first post!

Anyway, I haven't played Harvest so I can't really comment on how close the two are -- I meant my comment as more of a general rule about cloning than pertaining to this particular case. I'll have to play both first to see if it's something that went too far and was basically an unlicensed port, or if it's just like a spiritual sequel or something.

Anyway, Harvest appears to be on Steam, and this is just a Flash game. Is it really possible that a Flash game, even a popular one, can make more money than a game on Steam? It sounds unlikely to me.

Advertisement?

You might not get a lot of cash for each click, but if you put it up on a dozen different sites, I think you're going to get a lot of clicks; especially since people will go for a free Flash game instead of buying it on Steam.

Heh, yeah... when thewreck once asked what Dyson was like I told him "it's like Galcon but without the silly *poff* explosion sounds." I didn't think of it as a clone though, because there were interface things in Galcon that Hao should've stolen in that case (multi-planet select, for instance).

The guy who made this game, Heli Attack 3 (http://www.miniclip.com/games/heli-attack-3/en/), wrote on the IndieGames that he had made $20,000 just by getting paid from flash portals to have the game on their sites. I think Casual Collective made a lot more on Desktop TD, but it's hard to say how much they'll make on "the space game," though.

Anyway, it doesn't feel so bad any longer. It's more of a lesson learned. Like I said earlier, it would've been nice to get some recognition from the CC team, but I'm not gonna go all Squidi about it.

We kind of ended up in the same place as that more by accident than design. The game I set out to clone was Circle ;)

...just kidding, I've never hidden where my influences came from (visually, at least: Blueberry Garden and Circle, also flOw and PixelJunk Eden) but Rudolf's core design for Dyson was originally going to be very different and we had to pare it down to the simplest we could to get it out in time.

In terms of actual differences, I find that the play style of GalCon (and the army of flash ripoffs) is much faster and much simpler. Dyson's like the slow, thoughtful cousin of those games.


I've not yet played Space Game for long enough to really assess whether its changes to Harvest's design have improved it or not. Just from 5 minutes play it felt like a different game to me though... it didn't feel like I was playing Harvest with an asteroid belt skin, is what I mean.

The Dyson - Galcon comments keep popping up so I want to restate a few things. :-)
When I wrote the original design for Dyson, and for a long time while we were developing Dyson I had never heard of, or played, Galcon. I even told Haowan after the name kept popping up more often that I did not WANT to play it as I did not want to be influenced by any design similarities. Furthermore, the additional design changes that are yet to be implemented are very different from galcon. The design of Dyson is based on what we think is appropriate to the game expereience we have in mind, not on what we can borrow or clone from other games. There ARE of course other influences, but they are much different ones than most people seem to think. :-)

Edit:
Thanks Alex :-)

 

Re Rudolf:

Yeah... I'm currently working on a game that is similar to Faery Tale Online's concept. But I had already worked on the project for a while when I first noticed it here at Tigsource. So I decided to do like you... to never play the game and continue with my own style instead. It was a "oh crap" feeling when I read the FAQ on his site, though :)

Like you said, Dyson is similar to Galcon by coincidence, in the way Hollywood makes twin movies (The Prestige and The Illusionist, for example), and such situations will keep popping up.

Yeah I believe the only way to deal with these kinds of things is to politely counter misconceptions to a degree, and just make the games you want to make. Not much else you can do really :-) Anyway, if you you feel passionate about games like you cleary do the best weapon in your arsenal is to produce more high quality ones. :-D I for one can't wait what you guys have in store next. :-D

On Kongregate their game description says:

Though I must say: it's totally not the same game. The key ingredient of HME, the energy management and overloading, isn't there at all. (Another game that is sort of the same game, but in slow motion, is Settlers. Man I love Settlers 2)

And even though this probably totally sucks for you personally, and you do deserve credits and cold cash, I don't think it's all bad. I do believe that the world will be a better place if people steal eachother's ideas. It becomes a process of iteration, where good ideas inspire others to do new and creative things. If we get a wave of HME-like games, and even a new TD-genre, I'll be thrilled!

It sucks on the "another wasted opportunity" level. Can't say I blame CC for making it, I only wanted them to credit us in some way. That mention on Kongregate is really nice (and it seems it's quoted from JayIsGames, so I guess we're mentioned there too... which isn't so surprising, considering JIS is a reseller of H:ME).

We (Oxeye) are quite good at starting new projects and quite bad at monetizing on old projects, though getting Harvest on Steam is a step in the right direction. I think that's how IndieGamer defines "amateurs", hehe  :durr:

I dunno, I actually like this game more than Harvest. I can play this one from a browser instead of having to download it.

I played both games, honestly, I prefer "The Space Game" to Harvest.

You could say the game copied you with the "energy" part, but honestly, energy is just another form of resource, akin to Gold in Warcraft III.

The energy lines? The tons of worker orcs traveling back and forth in a line where if you kill the orc, you kill the line.

You kill the relay, you kill the energy flow.

The defense gun concept and the lasers pointing to it?

I don't know about you guys, but it seems awfully familiar to the Laser Chain in Onslaught.

Most of the buildings in Harvest are completely useless to name a few, the Research Lab, Cinema, living quarters.

I really don't feel like bashing games but, most games are a clone of one another with different graphics.

Stop whining, if you really think you have a case, sue them.

But in the current state, "The Space Game" is better.

 :shrug2:

Hehe, two man babies register to bash me, I feel sad now.

That will teach you not to attempt anything new or creative. Know your place jeb! :apoplectic:

Hehe yeah...

I don't know what they want, really. It's still my opinion that The Space Game is a clone and Harvest isn't. The two games were created with different intentions. If they think The Space Game is a better game, then that's fine. Casual Collective had the opportunity to see a finished game and refine it, which we couldn't... since we weren't cloning a game  ::)

Creepy...

The team behind TSG consists of two guys... Coincidence? I think NOT!

I figure it's not a question of how much you take, it's how much you add.

Fuck the cloners.

Wow, dude. Profound. :gentleman:

In a strange turn of events, David Scott came to our IRC channel tonight and talked to us. He said that the main inspiration was the energy links, and that he wanted to mention us in the credits list. Also, he wanted to meet up for a beer* during GDC (if I'm going) :)

So, happy ends :)

* Anybody who wants to meet the Casual Collective may join us, of course

We should get Whitlark to SF so we can settle this for good...

Uhm... who is... Whitlark?

Goldbuick :P

I will explain more later, but he destroyed a chair at TIGJam...

It's clobbering dickpunching time! :addicted::handshakeL:  Aah, I hope David can make it!

I haven't looked at the other game yet, but this situation sounds rather shit.  Are things really settled?

And those manbabies are extra-obviously suspicious...  Forget that noise, man.

P.S.  Is it true you're gonna be at the GDC, JB??

Well... As people have pointed out, taking inspiration from other games has been a part of game development for a long time, and Harvest isn't without its own sources of inspiration. My problem was that The Space Game was really similar to Harvest both in design (GUI placement, building names etc) and how it played, so it was a little too much simply to be "inspiration". However, I can't judge where the line is drawn, my opinion was simply that it would've been nice of them to tell us about it, and maybe give us some credit. Both those issues are resolved now, in my opinion.

On the business side of things, the Casual Collective will probably make more money on The Space Game than we have done on Harvest, but that's our own fault. Maybe we should've spent the time we spent on "Because it's fun, Fay" and "House Globe" on improving Harvest instead, but we didn't have the energy or motivation to do so. From the looks of things... we still don't have that energy. We rather do new stuff instead. Which is now put at a knife's point, because David told us they are planning a The Space Game 2 with multiplayer support... . . .  .  .  .  :droop:

BMcM: I'm still not 100% sure, but the more I think about it, the more I want to go. I'll make the decision on payday (wednesday).

You should go!  I'd love to see you.

If you're comfortable with the way things played out, then I guess that's that.  Move on, but use this knowledge.  You'll be able to make better and more successful games in the future.  That should be comforting, at least! ;)

I still think that the games can coexist. Your game has a strategic depth and complexity they can't compete with. Their game is an easily accsessible, nice little Flash game.

Personally I love that you guys keep being a creative force. For every Oxeye-like person, we get tens of thousands of people who rebuild, copy and polish.

Perhaps you should hire a polish-monkey in the future.

Paul here, 1/2 of the CC dev team.

TSG is inspired by Harvest and we are happy to credit Oxygene. We did not set out to clone the game but put our own spin on the game play and extend it into new areas. Since creating DTD and FETD (two of the most heavily cloned flash games) we have a great deal of experience of people cloning our games. But we recognise that we didn't invent the TD genre (nobody did, it grew by extending mods of Starcraft over many generations) and that the game industry is built on such iterative improvement.

If you guys are not making waaay more than $20K (the example you gave for a flash game) on Harvest it would be a crime as it's a cracking game. Hopefully we can send some business your way.

For the record, we didn't make the 'man baby' posts  :o

Wouldn't the person who created the first TD Starcraft mod be the person who invented the genre, though?

According to Wikipedia the guy who created the first TD Starcraft mod says he got the idea from Rampart (an old arcade/NES game), but I've played Rampart and it doesn't really play anything like a TD game, even though there are towers and they shoot at hoards of incoming enemies. The main distinction is that the towers in Rampart don't fire automatically, they're under your manual control and you have to keep clicking, whereas the towers in TD games do fire automatically at anything within their range.

/aside

At least credit the right people ;) Otherwise, I thought that was a nice post.

"A RTS that is a cross between Harvest Massive Encounter and Vector TD!"

From the description of the space game on kongregate. Nice to see this was resolved amicably!