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Yo dawgs. I'm at a bit of a conflict and need some input. To basically introduce who I am: I make games at home and sell em (http://www.tombrien.co.uk/Games.html), I want to work in a professional team, and I just got a job about 3 weeks ago. Here's where I am:

A couple weeks ago I started workin at [Actually I should probably remove the name], an independant studio made up of a very small team. They needed an animator, an that's me. I can't say what they're workin on cos y'know- contracts etc. It's great for me to be here allready cos I came straight out of college without spendin 3 years on a degree. The people there are fab, and I can do the job.

Here's where things get messy though: My contractual hours are 10 til 6:30 Monday to Friday, but I actually work from 10 til 8 or 9, and I just got a phone call asking why I didn't show up today (Saturday).
I get paid £50 a week (that's about a quid an hour) and my boss had a meeting with me to see if he could get it any lower. I make a lot more than that by sitting at home making my own games.
I'd guess that they don't have a lot of money, but right as I started work they bought a £300 statue of Big Boss to decorate the office, and it stands right next to me. That's my wages for the next 6 weeks.

Considering I've got zero work experience, I've got a lot of work to do in a fucking short amount of time. I can't say exactly what I do there, but they've needed an animator for a while. If I left, they'd have to get someone new in immediately.

Now don't get me wrong; I like working there. I work in a small team where everyone knows each other, and I've met people who've worked in games for decades. Oddly enough though, my parents hate that I have this job. They hate me getting home from work at 9 or 10 every night, they hate that I spend my wages on getting to work, hate that people are phoning me askin where I am on weekends, and basically think I'm an idiot for putting up with it. If I don't quit soon enough, my dad is gonna walk in there and get me fired one way or another.

So I might actually quit.
Everyone comment on this, cos I need pushing over to one side o the fence. My brother's first job was an absolute joke, they basically hired a load of fresh-faced graduates just so they could take advantage. Leaving that place ended up workin out great for him- That was a few years ago.

Quit.  You're working hard, being paid basically nothing.  Effectively, you're doing charity work.  Except not for a good cause, just for the profit of these guys who are taking advantage of you.  If you were getting a share of the profits, then maybe, if you really believe they'll actually finish the game (which is uncommon), but you're not.  So just leave now.

I must not be understanding this correctly. Are you saying you're paid fifty pounds a week, as in 80 U.S. dollars, for working 50 hours???

Or did you post this from 1935.

Uh... heard of minimum wage much? Especially as you mention 'contractual hours'... no contract saying that much work for that much can be legal surely...

Okay so far this sounds like what everyone else is telling me. I think I forgot to mention that I've just come out of College, didn't go to Uni, and they say I'm getting paid in work experience. I don't think that makes a difference to anyone at this point though.


That's a good point. I can't say anything about the game I'm working on, but personally I don't think it'll make it through the gates.

Wow, I_Smell, get out of there NOW, what the hell? Is that kind of slave labouring even legal in the UK? I know the unions would be all over this here in Sweden. Your parents are fucking right, how can you stay there?

Coming straight out of college just means that they think you're easier to exploit, when in fact it's just slave labour. If you're essential to the team, and not just doing an internship, they are really fucking out of line.

That sounds like slave labor to me. That's like less than $5k USD per year... you can make that much in under a month off of a flash game...

Hell, I make that much from picking up change off the streets

It's not unusual in the U.S. to take an unpaid internship in some field you're interested in, and I've heard that in some fields that are very competitive to get into, the interns can have a tough time of it. It's your decision to make whether you think the work experience and contacts you're making are worth it to you.

I was a little confused at first, I thought this was a legit job. That it's an internship does make it a little less clear-cut in my opinion. But if you think you don't need this intermediary step of an internship, by all means get out of there.


eta:
That sums it up best.

Give them an ultimatum. Something like rev-share and your own hours.

Even then though these people sound poisonous. I've found with poisonous folk it's best to just get as far away as possible as soon as possible. They do the most damage to honest people that "want things to work." Sounds like you're one of those honest people.

Too often "inexperienced" creative people get abused like this, though I've never heard of something this bad. To be honest, I think you'd get more experience simply by finding a nice programmer and an artist to work on stuff in your free time while making a living doing something unrelated and low on responsibility (barista, cook, waiter).

EDIT: but if this were an unpaid internship, you'd be treated a lot better. At least if they were decent people I don't think they'd be relying on you to do all of their animation. In an internship, unpaid especially, you'd be working with a professional animator and helping out as more of an apprentice. The value would be in those lessons you'd get directly from a professional. This doesn't seem to be the case here.

That's absurd, get outta there!

They're talking about it like it's an internship, but I'm the only animator on the team doing all the animation in the game.


I actually did make more than this yearly wage on a Flash game in two weeks: Robot Dinosaurs in April.
I know I can't do that forever though, and this is why I need work experience.

You know, an internship is only worthwhile if it's for a respectable company. I mean, apparently this isn't an internship, but say it was. from what you've told us, I think it's fair to say the company you work for is shit and poops and diarrhea.

LEAVE IMMEDIATELY. It will be the best thing you can do for your career. Look ELSEWHERE. Where you are currently working is by no means the norm and in no way does it imply that you cannot find something better.

If I understand you correctly, you keep saying that you need the experience, and I get the impression that, that alone is your primary justification for this job. If that is the case, then you've got it all wrong. You do not need to accept what amounts to slave labor for the opportunity to gain experience.

Experience should be acquired working on challenging projects, in an environment that nurtures growth and values YOU. Also you do not simply gain experience through repetition, you must learn from those more experienced from you. If you are the sole animator, what more experienced veteran on the team will you learn from?

If you are truly looking to enhance your skills, make a game with some indie devs. You will learn more than you possibly can working for those leeches.

Dude. Your games are amazing. Get out of that shithole and make more of what you love doing!

I'd be surprised if that arrangement didn't violate any labor laws. I'd quit if I were you.

It really does violate labour laws.

Minimum wage in the UK for anyone over 22 is £5.73 an hour (£4.77 if you're 18 to 22.)  Only way you can pay someone less than that is if they're on an apprenticeship scheme (and that means actually being on an apprenticeship scheme, not "it's kind of like being an apprentice.")

You can submit a complaint to the government online if you like:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/nmw/complaint.htm

Either way, get outta there.

Let's not get wrapped up in what's legal and what's not, cos I'm gettin paid cash-in-hand. None of us are lawyers, and I wouldn't feel great about forcing a couple thousand pounds away from anyone. You should sue is allways a really over-excited thing to say.

Even if you leave, I don't believe that the team members that you like being around are going to hate you. I feel that as soon as you said "I can make more doing what I do at home", that you probably should leave as well.

Experience is only worth getting if anyone values it. Working at a small game start up, may acquire you some experience, but is the actual experience worth anything? That one is a hard one for me to judge here ... but it usually worths more if the experience is from people who are well known within the industry. Typically, if you are going to be an intern / apprentice you would have a mentor to help guide you along your way. Otherwise you would be doing what everyone else is doing anyways.

It seems that the boss or the people running the place don't really know how to budget. If that was me, I'd always put employees first over myself. After all, I should be providing employees the best environment so that they can get their work completed. Buying a random decoration is cool, but you only do that when everyone is happy for you to do that...

To put things into perspective, I live in New Zealand. People on the dole (unemployed people who are given money from the Government to help support themselves) are given about $250 NZD per week. That's 105.19 pounds for doing absolutely nothing. People who are paid minimum wage for 40 hours work are paid about $500 NZD per week. That's 210.37 pounds for doing any kind of random job (such as cleaning an office).

I'd suggest you leave, and run far, far, far away.

Anything where the payment is "work experience" is something nobody should agree to.  You don't go to a neurosurgeon and ask for a free brain surgery because he can "put it on his resume."

Tell them to fuck off, they're trying to exploit you, and from what you've told us they seem to really have no respect for you. :facepalm:
You'd be better working anywhere else (although I know the employment situation is a bit shitty in the UK these days, but don't let people disrespect you).

 :eyebrows:

Heck, even I'd pay you $50 pound a week to make me some games.

In that case I'll pay $51

i'll go in for $55 lol, i would quit if i were you man.

I raise that to ..... 60 pounds per week!

*Pinky to the mouth pose*

But that's the rub... you AREN'T getting paid. If the amount they are GIVING you is less than the minimum wage and would not be a livable income if you were on your own, that isn't in the realm of a valid salary. It's a deft attempt to placate someone desperate. As others have said, if it's an internship, it should be labeled EXPLICITLY as such going through all the right channels with all the normal stipulations that go with an internship. If they have you listed as an employee and not an intern, then I wouldn't be surprised if they are doing something fishy with their book keeping to avoid the government finding out they are paying their employees below min wage. Who knows, maybe someone higher up is even pocketing what should be your wages? You can probably get more "industry exposure" through online volunteer projects than you can through this company.

If you're worried about getting work experience, show any respectable company all the flash games you've made and they will know you mean serious business. It takes a lot of dedication to complete a single game, let alone a collection of great games.

I worked for a shop that cut an awful lot of corners, and I rode along with it until the wheels came off a few months ago. Pay was cut, and it started to come months late by the end, but it did eventually come in. The reason why it was easy to stay on board in my case was because my workload became quite light(the bottlenecks were in the rest of the team - the most I could do was clear the way for them, which they respected) and I was still pulling enough money to gain some savings. My salary was low for the industry but definitely better than working retail or food service. Plus after getting laid off, unemployment benefits were sufficient funding for me to take on a bigger project.

I did learn a lot about taking on ambitious projects, cutting them down to size, learning the different roles in small-to-medium-sized teams, and developer/publisher/licensor relationships. That was all very valuable and has helped me tremendously to focus my own efforts.

In your case the main factor would be - are there grizzled vets around the shop that you can learn something from? Those are the guys that can give you a leg up, and you need only stay a few months, at most, to get most of the benefit from their presence. Other than that, there's nothing in it for you in this job, especially with such a poor wage.

The cash-in-hand only makes it more suspicious. If they are breaking the law (which sounds probable, but obviously we can't make that call), why not report them? Whose interests are you looking out for?

Leave. You're not getting anything out of this situation.

I would never report them, he is doing it voluntary and they are doing it on a voluntary basis. No one is really hurt here. Going to the government is the very last resort, it is costly and consumes your time like nothing else.

It would be much better to just quit and get a new job somewhere else.

Fist i had to say that I LOVE Robot Dinosaurs.

Now let's start with the current discussion, I worked for three years here in italy, in small and middle-sized software houses, and a lot of them act in that same manner.


that's normal... people usually works the Saturday in a lot of places, i could leave when i wanted, but sometimes i even did nights working when i had to meet a deadline, that's something you can't do nothing about, if you accept a schedule you need to meet it, even if it will lead to do extra hours... the trick here is to not accept crazy deadlines from the start.


Ok, that's SLAVERY, say them to fuck off, I was paid around 50 EUR a day (around 1300-1500 eur per month, taxes excluded), basically more in a day than you get in a week, even if your one is an entry-level job that's not fair at all, i'd pay you more for some animations as freelance job if i had the money.

Leave with a big "FUCK YOU!" and slam the door, you can do much more on your own, from house, with flash games.
Luckly not every team is like that...

I was pretty sure that your original post was a joke when I read it first.  I still don't really believe that you would be that stupid.

hmm.

c'mon increpare, i bet it's already an hard situation as it is!
He surely got the wrong way, but i can understand that starting in the industry leads to ungrateful situations most of the times.

For me, for example is that i expected to be "in the industry" and I discovered that i was working for a bunch of idiots that knew way less than me about how to make a game.

Tom, you really got talent, I'v just played Legend of JOHNNY and it's fuckin' amazing, you can aim way, WAY higher than this.

I really wish i had some spare money to do an xbox live game with you

The question you have to ask yourself is why you should stay there.

You might choose to stay for the money.  (Actually, based on what you've said, this one isn't a compelling reason)

Or if not, you might stay for the money-down-the-road, when the project you're working on is released, becomes a runaway best-seller, and your share of the profits make you absurdly wealthy beyond your wildest dreams.  (Only applicable if they've given you a share in the company, or if there are royalty rights already written into your employment contract.  I assume that neither of these is the case, and so this one is probably also out.  But if you do have one or the other, you need to make your best guess about whether the game is likely to ever be released, and whether it's likely to actually become a runaway best-seller)

Or you might want to stay just for the experience;  simply to learn from the people who've done this stuff before.  (This will depend on how awesome the people around you there are, and on how much that's worth to you)

Or maybe you think that if you keep working there for a while, it'll make it easier to get your foot in the door at a different company later on.  This can work, but it only works if you actually release at least one game while you're there, and that game receives halfway-decent reviews.  So if this is your reason for staying, you need to do some soul-searching and decide whether you think they'll release a game which is reviewed favourably.

Or you might be working there because there's nothing better available.  (Actually, you say that you'd earn more by working as an entrepreneur, so this isn't it.  But if this was it, you definitely want to be looking for another job while continuing to work there;  it's always worth looking to find that "something better"!)

Or maybe some other reason that I haven't thought of.  But you need to find a reason to stay;  a reason other than simply inertia;  that that's what you're already doing, and therefore it'd be too much effort to change now.  If you can find a reason, and the reason makes sense to you, then go for it.


(But with all that said, it sounds like a terrible place to work, to me.  But I'm not the one who has to live with it, so it's really not my call.) 

It's slightly worrying how everyone's asking how I think the game will be when it comes out- because the game doesn't look that great, and I don't think the audience of our priority platform is gonna pick it up at all. I really think they've chose the wrong platform to focus on. Y'all know what I mean; they WANT to release it on platform X when it's much better suited to platform I.

Also the issue of who I'm learning from is slightly shakey. The boss has a good few years of experience, but everyone else is either straight out of uni or currently studying. People come in from time to time who've worked in games for decades and that really shows.


Thanks, I'd be up for that.

Anyway the boss and the sub-boss (mini-boss?) are away this week, so I don't wanna leave them totally in the shit, and I don't fancy explaining my problems to anyone who isn't the boss. So maybe I'll just hang on for a week.

Yeah, it sounds like, from their perspective, they're bringing you on as an internship, with some slight monetary benefits, but to them it isn't as if you're an actual employee there yet. It's quid pro quo with them getting cheap work, and you getting experience. But in that case, they definitely shouldn't be working you into the ground the way you are. If you are integral to their process, bring it up and ask to become a proper employee, and if not, then they shouldn't be asking you to come in and work crazy long hours.

I know you're probably not a confrontational person, neither am I, so the idea of talking to them and saying "pay me a decent wage or I have to go" would seem pretty unappealing... but in the industry (and outside of it, really), you have to be able to stand up for yourself, otherwise you will get exploited like this.

I think that in this situation that's the best and the most professinal way to act, explain to the boss\mini-boss in private that you was expecting much more from the work when they'll be back and then leave.
I did exactly the same with my last job, i was expecting to work on a wii\pc game but they got short on funds during the development and the entire team switched to iphon\mobile\flash crap, the sort of thing i can do myself during my spare time, I wasn't under a contract (they always delayed that matter) so i just dropped the ball.

Another collegue followed me shortly after and now we're working on our own game, trying to fund our own indie software house  :eyebrows:

The point of minimum wage isn't solely to sue people (which would be pointless in this case). The existence of a minimum wage level provides a negotiating tool for employees in an otherwise weak position to prevent exploitation by their employers.

That said, I don't see this case as employment. The unnamed game company is exploiting I_smell's desire to be in the industry by persuading him to do voluntary work for them. This basically is an unpaid voluntary post, with the only difference being that they are misleadingly not characterising it as such. The £50/w is just confusing the issue.

50 quid a week is way below minimum wage in the UK, so that should be a warning sign right there. If you're telling me they're trying to haggle you even below that, the company doesn't deserve the time you are putting in there.

If I were you I would request a reasonable salary for the work you are doing, and barring that, would quit. Like you said, you make more money making your own games and selling them. Those conditions are inexcusable, no matter how tight their budget is.

The only reason why I would suggest staying there would be if you feel you are gaining invaluable experience, the game is going to be halfway decent, and your name is going to appear in the credits. That right there will open some doors for you in the future. On the other hand, however, if you can make your own games, and they are good, there really is no reason for you to work there unless you feel you are gaining something you think you can't gain elsewhere.

Leave and take the statue with you. Who do these people think they are, blizzard?

Without seeing the job advert or being involved in the interview it is impossible to know if they misled you or you just misunderstood what they were offering re job vs internship. Because of that it is unfair to pass judgement on this company - even if they do have a statue that gets paid more than you!

What it is possible to say is that it is never ever sensible to stay in a job that doesn't meet your needs. A quick look at the news will show that game companies routinely shed loyal staff whenever it is necessary for the business. You are engaged in a business relationship and you should not let you personal feelings for the other staff cloud that.

Most peoples needs include:
Being happy (in some measure) in their job - doesn't sound like you are.
Getting paid enough - nope.
Gaining something else of value such as work experience - doesn't sound like the experience you are getting is worth much.

I would approach this as a simple business issue and try to avoid any emotion. Ask to speak to the boss and tell them that unfortunately your situation has changed and that you are unable to continue working for free (tell them you rent went up/your folks have started charging you to live at home or something similar). Explain that you enjoy working with everyone there but that you can make more money doing your own games at home so you can't afford to continue unless they can convert your position over to a proper paid position. (You need to have a number in your head as to what is an acceptable salary).

Their answer will tell you exactly how much they actually value you.

This reeks of exploitation to me as well, and I'll join the chorus advising you to leave. An internship should provide the environment and/or training for you to advance your skills from amateur to professional levels, and this doesn't sound like what you've been given.

Confrontation may be hard, but you'll earn more respect from people the sooner you learn to stand your ground, and others won't treat your talents and work with importance or respect until *you* treat them that way first.

I wouldn't make a big deal of the talk, just calmly and as simply as possible explain your reasons for terminating your current arrangement. If they respond with emotional appeals or anger, you know they were probably trying to manipulate you or at least do not view the relationship very professionally. If they respond with surprise and panic, they are probably good guys with poor management and finance skills.

Finally, you can always offer to contract with them if they grow desperate, though of course you'd want to raise your rates.

On that note, one of the things I think anyone should ask before going into a company is: "how many months can the company continue operating off money in the bank and no profit?" If you have any suspicions or even curiosity about a company's solvency, this is a good question to ask. Any solid company will give you a reasonable answer, either with a reliable number or else an explanation of their funding strategy.

Man get the fuck out of there right now, you could get in some serious trouble with the inland revenue depending on what you signed and your employment status. 50 quid a week is a crime mate. Get out of there. What is this place, DDI? Shop these twats on your way out and do the industry a favour.

If you've signed an employment contract and you're being paid cash in hand... well I don't know the ins and outs but that is highly irregular and probably a tax dodge, and since it's well below minimum wage you're getting royally stiffed. You should be looking at £14-16k p.a. for a junior animator.

50 fucking quid a week. Fuck me. Let me know who these guys are by PM and I'll put the word out on a private industry forum for people to avoid.

See the section "What should you do if you're not getting the minimum wage?" on this page:

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/employment/employment-terms-and-conditions/the-national-minimum-wage-2/the-national-minimum-wage-1.htm

Also you can phone ACAS - www.acas.org.uk

They really are exploiting you, whichever way you look at it. Also it seems very doubtful that you'd be learning good industry practices and working on a worthwhile project at that kind of place (this is pretty evident anyway from some of your posts).

Good luck!

Okay I'm back after reacting to this. I haven't read these recent posts though, so quickly:

Thanks, that's brilliant advice.


I might do this. Not to spite anyone, just so I can definately feel like I'm not alone. I'd love to say I'm gettin advice from professionals, but it'd sound a bit stupid if they knew I was doing it on the internet.


"Apprentices under the age of 19 and apprentices who are 19 or over and in the first 12 months of their apprenticeship are not entitled to the National Minimum Wage."
I'm pretty sure at this point that I am on an internship. I couldn't tell at first because I was the only animator on the team and was working employee-hours. But I am.

So what happened?
The boss was away for a week or so, and he got back today. We were talkin about feedback on some animation work and I said
"I'm gonna have to push back what I'm doing now if I want to work on this new feedback."
He said "Well you'll have to do overtime."
I said "We need to have a meeting." and then started talking about all this.
How I can't keep workin overtime for this much money, I'll never work weekends, everyone I know is laughing at me and my family think I'm an idiot for staying here.
He basically shot down everything I said with stuff like most apprenticeships last a year and pay nothing, this other guy works the same as me and doesn't complain, he knows people who can do my work for free etc etc. I should decide whether or not I want to work in games because it's like this everywhere etc etc.

At this point I'm tryin to work out what I'd do after I quit this job, and I'm pretty devastated that he had an immediate comeback to everything I'd thought of, so I went home to think about my options. I spent the rest of the night talking to family about my job.
Tomorrow I'm quitting. I need to make VERY SURE though that it's not because I can't do it or I'm not ready or anything, it's because it's not worth it.

I'm gonna have to spend the next HOWEVER LONG IT TAKES making indie games, keepin myself up, and jumping on every opportunity I have to contribute to a team.
Actually, to be 100% honest I'm gonna take it really easy for a while. My next game, Blastmaster Borris, is a good example of me taking it easy.

Check out I-smel.newgrounds.com to see me blog about this like a loser. I keep my composure at TIG, cos you guys all wear big-boy pants.
Long story short I'm telling them tomorrow that I need to stop working there, and they've got the next few days to pick up one of these industry professionals who work for free.

good for you dude. definitely the right decision.

I know how those kind of meetings can really suck, especially if the opposition is pouncing on everything with a counterpoint. While it may seem like he has a point, I assure you he does not. The fact that he's arguing with you like a brick wall is evidence enough that he doesn't care about you in the slightest. That's rough. Just another reason you're making the right choice by leaving this poisonous bastard.

Good luck, and I wouldn't be surprised if this whole ordeal and you coming forward to us and other communities spawns some kind of magical collaboration that makes you thousands of pounds.

:)

Yeah, like 3 people have asked to make a game with me today. It's the internet though, so y'know. They usually don't lift off.

And really, the last thing I care about right now is money.

He didn't shoot down anything - he is talking crap and disrespecting you. Just because some other idiot works for free doesn't mean you should and it is certainly not like that everywhere.

Still he has made it clear what he thinks of you which should make it easier to leave.

When a boss starts making claims like this, it's definitely time to get out ASAP, perhaps pausing only for a "Yeah.  Are you sure about that?" first, to allow him a chance to voluntarily back off from the ridiculous claims. 

But regardless, he claims to know people who would do your work for free, but is demanding you work overtime and weekends rather than asking those people to help you.  So either he's lying to you or he's intentionally making your work harder out of pure mean-spiritedness.  Either way, you really don't want to work for him.



And just a quick pedantic point:  You're not working as an apprentice.  An apprentice trains under a highly skilled person who will teach them their craft;  this training often takes the place of (and can be far more valuable than) a salary.  As the only animator there, you are not being trained by anyone, therefore you are not working as an apprentice.

you're awesome I_smell, a lot of people wouldn't have the guts to do what you're doing. I think this is going to pay off for you in the future.  :handthumbsupL: :handthumbsupR:

Good--I'm glad to hear that you're leaving that place. :)


I sincerely hope that that's not true. I'd like to think that just about anybody has the guts to leave a job where they are overworked, paid virtually nothing, and receive no experience they couldn't get working for themselves.

Yes, do it man!

There's no such thing as an "internship" in the UK (AFAIK), and an apprentice is something very specific.

In fact: http://www.apprenticeships.org.uk/Be-An-Apprentice/Other-Questions/FAQDetails11.aspx
For fucks sake! Even if you are on a proper apprenticeship scheme, i.e. not qualifying for minimum wage, you are still legally entitled to £95! (you said you were on £50 a week right?)

Just... no. As Alex said you should expect £14-£16k for a junior position, and in what way are games companies exempt from minimum wage legislation?

You don't have to get drawn into arguing with this guy, just politely walk away.

He didn't have a comeback. That's just bullshit, no respectable game company acts like that.

Good for you, that boss sounds like a real piece of shit.

You should turn all the sprites in the game into giant cocks before you leave.

Hope things turn out the best for you.

Hey good luck man, you're a really cool guy and you wont regret it, it's not true that every software house is like that, work hard on your games and on your portfolio.

These kinds of statements remind me of the idea of spec work, since one of the podcasts I listen to were ranting about the topic recently.

If another guy does it for free and doesn't complain? Well that's him. That guy can be an asshole all he wants, but I want my work to be respected enough to be paid for. He knows other people who will work for free? Good for him, he'll get what he pays for when he hires those people. As for the "This is how it is everywhere"? That's a scare tactic. He's trying to convince you of a negative mindset, hoping you will accept his word at face value and not do your own due-diligence. If every company were like this there wouldn't be an industry, because the majority of people working in games DO need the money.

I know you feel you don't need the money right now, but compensation for your work is a sign of respect from an employer. If someone doesn't respect your work enough to pay for its production, they don't respect the value of your process. It's an insult to you, and to your industry.

If you'd like to hear other people rant about this topic, listen in on the Big Illustration Party Time podcast about this topic at http://illustrationparty.blogspot.com/2009/09/episode-33-spec-work-still-aint-no.html (direct link http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-29562/TS-265930.mp3) It's a biggie but I think it's a good listen if you've ever considered "doing art for free".

The guy is older than you that's why he had a comeback to everything you said, proves that he had been thinking about the problem in the first place. You made the right choice.
You're better off doing nothing than wasting your health there.

I hope you find a lawful employer in the future!

Also, what's to stop your boss from doing this to some other poor artist?  I think you *might* want to get this company audited after you've left for greener pastures.  There is a good chance something is seriously up with the place.

Wow, what a bunch of crooks. D:

Seriously, you should shop that guy in. He will definitely try to exploit some other people soon.

The only possible explanation for that sum 50 pounds per week (60 euros, it's easier for me to think in euros) is that the employer could have been used to outsourcing into cheaper countrys like my own (Romania) where the average weekly pay is about 70 euros per week but even then he would have had to work with a company in that country because freelancers charge more than that. My last job, with no other previous work experience, as flash developer was part-time but more in the sense that it was a full time job with half the pay and i made about 75 euros a week but i had colleagues who worked for 50 euros a week and artist get payed less than enginners so an artist would have been payed around 40 euros a week. What can i say, it kinda sucks to live here money wise :shrug2:.

Your post made me really happy I_Smell, I am so glad you had that meeting and I back up obscure, mewse, Ed and the others with their advice above. I'm really sorry this was your first experience of the industry - it really isn't like that everywhere, contrary to what your 'boss' said.

Chin up - you really seem like you have your head screwed on and it looks like you've taken this really well and are using it positively, so good luck to you.  :gentleman:

After what was said in that meeting by your boss, I think it is very clear that its in your best interest to leave. Also, I'm glad you had the guts to do everything you did. Things WILL get better. You made the right decision. No looking back, keep on marching forward cause you've got a bright future. Best of luck.  :gentleman:

Just add here, I'm currently unemployed and looking for work in the UK. I get a little over £50 a week in dole money. Which means I'm more highly paid than you, and I'm unemployed. Your situation is pretty untenable.

Just chiming in my "hurrah" as well. Quit that job.

I'll second the argument that if he can find someone to do your job for free, that means he should be hiring that person to do your overtime. Either that or he's lying. GTF out of there.

So what happened, did you quit yet?

Good for you, they were just trying to take advantage of you. You might think that is bothersome to sue but it would be good, so they learn that there are consequences to their actions, otherwise they'll just keep exploiting people for their own benefit.