Public service announcement.

SF is one of the few places in the US you can even find Fernet, much less order it in a bar. It's amazing. Like awfully, disgustingly, pleasurably, tinglely, amazingly good. You should try it. It will put hair on your chest. I have proof.

Further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernet_Branca
http://www.sfweekly.com/2005-12-07/news/the-myth-of-fernet/

Anyway. I haven't been a huge contributor to the indie scene, but I do visit regularly and am always inspired and awed by what people here do. So for any TIGSFolk who so please, grab me and we'll go for drinks, 1st round on me.

Monday I'll be wearing this shirt and attending the Math/Physics Tutorial.

we're staying at Adelaide, so it'll not be totally tig-free.

Then I will see you there!

gotta get a bunch of those.
best hangover remedy ever.

I thought it was menudo? Man have I been misguided.

Madnis, what about booking one night at Adelaide or a similar hostel? might be a bit pricey compared to crashing for free at someone's sofa though.

Yeah, that is the "Le Backup Plan". Thought I might as well ask because: 1) just in case, and 2) it'd be fun to crash with some TIGSfolk. But, deadline incoming, so time for plan B.

Throwing this out here just in case....

I need a place to stay the night of Tuesday the 24th. If anybody has space and doesn't mind putting me up for the night after getting silly at the IGDA party, let me know. I'm a happy drunk.

I can pay or we can arrange some sort of indentured servitude.

Yeah, like that one chapter where they spoiler spoiler the spoilery spoilers..... probably the most disgusting video game experience of my life. Right up there with the organic levels in Contra, and the first time I played Zerg.

Have you seen the fast and the furious? It's the best movie ever filmed , it's so deep!
Why don't they make more movies like that?
Hey I just bought a new mobile OMG OMG it's sooo tight!

Fun games are fun. I don't need a masterpiece of originality every time I sit down to play. Sometimes I like Chopin, sometimes I like whatever happens to be on the top 40.

Also, this is a gentleman's thread, so bugger off.

This thread is not indy at all! But it may feature independent gentlemen gathering at a to-be-announced digital locale to shoot each other mercilessly. Or shoot Locust in Horde mode.

Who's in!?
Add me on XBL: M4DNi5

*disclaimer: although I feature a l33t gametag, I am in fact not actually l33t, nor do I pwn faces. Occasionally I roxx0r the s0xxorz.

 

After a session of gaming/talking about games at a friend's house, we went out. It was very dark, and as we opened the yard gate it let out a delightfully spooky creak, and I said,

"Wow, this world has cool sound effects."

[vastly]

Different languages can offer vastly different approaches to different problems.

But of course, good sir! My choice of words was far too humble, for fear of seeming immodest in my presumptions.
 

+1 for Hypertalk
Hypercard has been erased from the collective memory, I don't think anybody remembers how powerful it was.

Spent afternoons at my mom's office and learned Hypercard by sitting next to the tech guy asking questions. Eventually that turned into me helping him find bugs, and writing my own apps on any spare computers. Funny thing is that later I took a computers class in middle school, and learned BASIC on Apple IIe. Bass-ackwards.

My high school had a computers department where I learned more Hypercard, Pascal, C, and some C++ and Java.

College covered Java, Lisp, SPARC Assembly (wtf?), C++.

I was very lucky with teachers... major props to all the self-taught people.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most programmers over their career will learn several languages. The underlying principles are the same, and I would even say that the more languages you learn, the easier it is to learn new languages.

I also believe that even though they share common ground, each language can offer a slightly different perspective on how to approach and solve problems.

Learning one language does not lock you into that language. If you are just starting, pick something that will get you up and running quickly. It's important to get the positive feedback from having made programs that do stuff, or you might see your programming efforts pretty derailed.

I have no experience with C#, but I would recommend Python. I actually love C++, but I don't wish it on anybody as their first language (unless you have an excellent teacher/tutor, or you are just plain brilliant).

Too much talking. Not enough panda-ing.

Agreed. Otherwise, this thread will be Finnished.

HARR! 

moar observatrees.



... am I too late?


 

I sort of the hate the "learn C first to learn C++" camp, but there is something valuable there. IMHO if you started C++ using only the C-equivalent subset of the language, you might be on your way. That is, ignore classes, templates, and the like--- stick to procedural programming. After that, exercises like writing your own linked-list or stack are decent introductions to memory management and objects. You might try these SDL tutorials (http://lazyfoo.net/SDL_tutorials/index.php). Keep a good reference on hand (http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/), and look stuff up often.

However, the fact is that learning C++ is not just about learning the language, but also about compilers, linking, project management, design.... If you want to work cross-platform, you will spend some time with CMake or SCons.... it's a pretty big undertaking, and one could definitely spend all their time learning and wake up a year later never having actually made anything.

If you're very serious about learning C++ 'The Right Way' (TM), you will want to pick up Bjarne Stroustrup's book (his homepage), and The C++ Standard Library by Josuttis. These are not tutorial books or 'learn C++ in 21 minutes', but will help you to know exactly what each piece of your code does and to me definitely represent the red pill of C++ programming.

Don't let C++ intimidate you, just check your priorities.

http://t-machine.org/index.php/2008/09/09/publishers-are-from-mars-developers-are-from-venus/

Thought I'd link this here because it's an interesting post... 2-part, don't miss the 2nd. I'm don't have that much business experience or (any) experience with publishers, so I'd love to hear what people think of this.

I sort of think the 2nd part sounds very Utopian, which to me usually means it's either very unlikely to happen, or probably won't turn out as good as it looks. Maybe pessimistic, but I'm wary of an argument for something that doesn't admit to <any> drawbacks in the new system.

EDIT:
it's not my blog/post, it's by a former NCSoft dev.

Well, it requires some butchering, but here goes...
Given n games that have been created and m languages in existence, where n > m, it's fairly certain there's been > 1 game written in one or many of those languages.

Don't you cheat now, there's no probability involved in the pigeonhole principle

Now you're just baiting me! 

Ok, rewrite:
Given n games that have been created and m languages suitable for creating games, where n > m, one or more of those languages have been used to create > 1 games.

</offtopic>

Or, put another way, do you really insist that what you as one person, given your finite resources of time and patience, could accomplish with either punched cards or, say, Java, is identical? Because that's the definition of power of a language to me.

I admit that my posts are ridiculous, and have been more to get a laugh out of the discussion than anything. On a serious note: IMHO, the power of a language depends on what you are trying to do. A grammar + infinite tape is a very powerful theoretical tool. Java is probably the most powerful cross-platform tool. Python is powerful for RAD and scripting, but Lua is (arguably) the more powerful embedded scripting language. C++ is the most powerful language for shooting yourself in the leg.

When trying to make a game, the difference between one modern object-oriented language and another is not that great IMHO. As far as making a decent game (or finishing any game), it certainly doesn't play as big a role as the person behind the keyboard.

"I want to make a game and I know language X, should I learn new langauge Y?" No, absolutely not.
"I'm frustrated with language X and can't get anything done, should I learn new language Y?" Yes.
"I want to learn a new way of doing things, should I learn new language X?" Yes.

And I really want to see you fit the pigeonhole principle into this discussion

Well, it requires some butchering, but here goes...
Given n games that have been created and m languages in existence, where n > m, it's fairly certain there's been > 1 game written in one or many of those languages. The assumption is that each language has been used to write -any- games, but I feel that's pretty safe... Even Fortran and COBOL have at least Blackjack.

Pro tip: Masking tape is sticky on one side. Avoid.

 :D

Of course, I was referring to "Johnny the Hole-Punch: One Office-bot's Quest for Turing-completeness", a platformer title featuring masking-tape grappling hook, where he fights of hordes of Fortran-powered card shuffling minions inhabiting the bowels of the IT department.

... we are way off-topic... lol

I'll agree with you once you do this:

My next project will be programmed using a roll of masking tape and a hole punch. Or maybe butterfly wings. :D

 

Give me infinite time and, an endless roll of tape, and a 'masking-tape/hole-punch' compiler, and I will. Until then, I will continue to make audacious claims and back them up with lessons in computer science so pretentiously theoretical that they have no bearing on the real world whatsoever.

Don't make me bust out the Pigeonhole principle.

 

Both Java and C# are Turing-complete, and so is pretty much everything else, so the question of power always seems a little religious to me. My next project will be programmed using a roll of masking tape and a hole punch. Or maybe butterfly wings. :D

(ie you will be able to make your game in either)

.... now if we want to consider convenience, flexibility, portability, personal style...

My vote is just do it. Each language has something different to teach and represents a different way of thinking. Java is not that bad (especially now) and C#, practically speaking, is Windows-only.