I like some of the ideas about the creatures in the caves interacting more. Even a few basic behaviours would be interesting. I don't know how much easier a game it would be though.

And I also don't see the reasoning behind trying to get more gamers to go over to the "hardcore" side. Is there something inherently wrong with having variety amongst gamers? Is there something inherently better about having games whose difficulty matches that of some other period of time? I don't see how having easy games is a flaw with today's society. If it is, then having faster internet is a flaw with today's society. And so are microwaves. And easier to use operating systems.

I've read this a few times and I don't follow what you are saying. Spelunky isn't trying to get people to go over to the "side that enjoys hard games." It's just a hard game.

It's great having variety amongst gamers, but isn't said variety provided by a variety of games? I do not enjoy scrolling shoot-em-ups, I generally either find them too hard or too boring. They are popular with other players. That's variety right there.

I have to call you out on your logic. Easy games are not a flaw in today's society. No one has said that. Some have lamented the ease of modern games, sure. There are lots of merits to easy games, and games with difficulty settings, but your logic is:

1. Games are getting easier.
2. Everything gets better over time.
3. Therefore easier is better.

You support this logic by reducing to the absurd: that anyone who disagrees with you also thinks fast internet is worse than slow internet.

As to the issue of difficult games, particularly a game like Spelunky that hearkens back to NES platformers. It's like shooting a contemporary film in black and white, or 8mm, or in a deliberately outdated style like film noir. There is nostalgia, but in a good example of such art the style is in dialogue with the original. It speaks to how games used to be and how they could have been. In a way the game maker is showing us what he found so great about the games he references (even when the original game was bad). He says "I want to try and share some of my experience with you." It applies the tropes of a genre to a different age, where we can see it with new and fresh eyes. Old ideas become new again, and maybe we see the merit in those ideas that we missed or dismissed the first time.

To turn your reducto-ad-absurdum back on you: you must never watch a movie that isn't brand new (and TV reruns? no way) because everything new is better. Twilight is better than Titanic which is better than Casablanca. And a remake, or a film that is a homage to an older era is a waste of time.

[Silver Ankh]

Can you lower the size of the top half of the adventurer's collision box?  Trying to jump up out of a small corridor is pretty tricky, yet something that many of the level patterns make nearly mandatory.

/second

Jumping up is really tricky when you have a ceiling above your head, too tricky.

The funny thing is, the only way to get her out most of the time is to bomb the surrounding wall, yet the blast radius is such that to attempt to save her leads to her death.

She can frequently be saved, but I'm just saying often it's not worth it. In the lush levels it would frequently take 2 bombs at least and possibly a rope to save a damsel. That's too many resources, and too much time to be worth it.

@vdgmprgrmr

There definitely is natural skill and learned skill that applies to Spelunky. I've gotten pretty good at it, but it did take a lot of practice. I had to learn the rules of the game. Derek stated this was what he wanted, to take the player along and let him learn (often through trial and error) how to play. It worked for me, but I understand it wont necessarily work for everyone.

I see what you are trying to say about innovation and accessibility. The question though is how much accessibility does a game need? Why does accessibility = victory? What I'm just throwing out is can people enjoy the game itself without winning?

There are definitely some major walls to enjoyment when you get instant killed or face challenges that seem unfair (I'm looking at you lush levels... frogs... ugh).

How about this:

Silver Ankh

When you die, all your unspent cash goes towards a silver ankh, which costs an exorbitant amount (like 300K+, which could be achieved in 10 or less plays depending). As many as you can afford are purchased but only 1 will appear in the shortcut house or the title cave at a time.

There are 2 possible ways to implement it.

1. You pick it up and it acts exactly like the ankh except it doesn't give you access to the secret.
2. (My preference). You pick it up, but when you die you can choose to restart a level when you die. This would allow you to play without a net (if you don't pick it up). Or pick a good run to use the ankh (as opposed to taking it and getting shot up by arrows in level 1 and wasting bombs on a crate with a parachute).

(There might also be an option to bank bombs and ropes, so if you have less than 4 you can restart the level with 4).

In any case, use of the ankh will have a score penalty, like the final bonus will not be worth as much. With an online high-score table, this would work well. Players who just want to win have an easier time, while players who want to go for a high score can do so. The ankh should also restart the level timer so the ghost doesn't get you (possibly for the 2nd time).

I found an interesting article on difficulty in games. It's by Brett Douville (Bethesda Softworks) on difficulty in COMMERCIAL games.

He writes:

"You Can Always Make It Easier. Your easiest setting should basically be "push button, win game". You will think that it can't be made easier, that there are no wall missions. You will be wrong. Make it easier. Give them an out."

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=22313

And a summary article and discussion on the Escapist:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.90872

He's got some interesting ideas, some of which I agree with and others I need to think about. One thing to remember though is that he is discussing commercial games. The commercial model for video game sales is that the easier a game is the faster a player finishes it so they can go and buy a new game. This is the opposite of the arcade model, where the harder the game is the more lives they lose, so the more quarters they spend.

I know this game encourages chivalry (when you are not sacrificing damsels to Kali), but sometimes you just have to say, "Bitch, you are on your own."





I've started a flicker group for funny pics, bugs, etc:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/1046830@N23/

Let's get some animated Gif avatars!

Also, bugs?

I've noticed a lot of stuff getting trapped in walls (see above):


Nugget in a tree? I had the Udjat Eye:

Please do NOT introduce any continuity between plays, ESPECIALLY not continuity that requires deleting records to get rid of!  This isn't some crappy Western RPG, it's an action game intended to test your skills.

That goes for Paul's suggestion of extra HP over time (you should be getting better over time, not Indy) as well as the absolutely horrendous suggestions of locking content based on prior decisions (so if I ever see enemy X I can never see enemy Z?).

/agree

In a single PLAY branching paths are fine. As is there is a branching path already with the Udjat Eye. You either get to the secret area or you don't. I'm definitely interested in a few other branching paths that may or may not be mutually exclusive.

As for the Shiren the Wanderer idea, I do kind of like that idea. Like if you were to start from level 1, and beat level 4 where you would normally meet the tunnel man (who you have already paid off) you could pay to store *some* bombs and rope. I don't think anything else should be able to be stored there (otherwise, I would just stockpile everything waiting for my shotgun, jetpack, climbing gloves, spike shoes, sticky bombs combo for a super play through).

Regarding difficulty:

Difficulty is going to be subjective. Mario 3 was tossed around a bit as an example of a great platformer that has a good level of difficulty. However, everyone's experience of Mario 3 is different, so some may have found it exceptionally difficult. I imagine, actually, that we misremember the difficulty of individual levels because we could replay them thanks to the lives system. Many of Mario's levels were murderously difficult if you didn't have the right gear (hmmmm, kind of like Spelunky).

I have 14 wins to over 400 losses. This is a good ratio though it is less than 4% wins. What would be a reasonable victory % for this game? In my opinion around 2-3%. Yes it's hard, and occasionally the randomness will get you, but if you persevere and get better you are rewarded. So much of my appreciation for this game comes from how I thought"my god this game is too hard". But I learned, got better, and started to recognize what I thought was unfair was actually very fair. When I lose, it is almost always because I made a mistake. I ran without looking and so I got hit by an arrow trap. I got too close to a jar that I whipped and lost a point of life. Reckless behaviour punishes you.

This is very unlike most commercial video games where the success rate is 90% or higher. Many RPGs are practically impossible to lose even on the first run. You will almost never fail to beat an enemy or boss. On guitar hero the first time you pick up an instrument you will probably get 60% or higher. Very quickly, you are kicking yourself for getting below 95%. Is this the standard we want?

I think in many games having a high win percentage is reasonable. For adventure games, I think the developer of Monkey Island said every challenge should ensure the player beats it 90% of the time on the first try. That was an advanture game, and every challenge or puzzle the player does not complete completely shuts down the game and prevents moving forward. Spelunky allows you multiple solutions to problems: do you bomb down and avoid an enemy, or risk health loss. Do you climb the spike totem and risk death, or use a bomb or a rope. Do you hoard your money hoping for a jetpack, or buy the climbing gloves that are in the shop now?

Other games present challenges as well as sandbox elements. Yes it is nice to be able to drive anywhere you want and do fun things in Grand Theft Auto. Spelunky is not a sandbox game. There are fun elements that can interact in various ways, but you are on task the whole time. I too like being able to play, in the sense of just fooling around with game elements, and you can do that in spelunky, it's just more constrained.

I know spelunky is hard. I accept that. But is it unreasonably hard? A game lasts less than half an hour if you get to the end. Sometimes it lasts less than 2 minutes. But starting a new game takes a second, and you are back on a new adventure every time.

Every level of Mario 3 had a timer. Each level was like a mini game. Even if the level was hard, you could try again right away. Often you could skip the level entirely if you wanted. Spelunky offers all of these elements, and yes the levels are sometimes harder, but you also sometimes get a big box of bombs and a jetpack, which is way better than a raccoon suit.

My advice to players: Start from level 1. Kill yourself if it goes poorly. Buy the climbing gloves (they pay for themselves in a few levels), and take your time. Assess each encounter with each snake and decide to kill it or avoid it. Buy small bags of bombs if you have less than 5, even when saving for the ankh or a jetpack. Throw rocks, damsels, and idols as weapons. Look down to see if there is stuff below you you want. Look up. Take your time. Use bombs to open passages, always if there is a crate. Recognise patterns. Fight frogs and spiders individually, baiting them. It's not about fast reflexes, it's about smart planning, and recognising enemy and level bevahiour. Bomb down in the lush levels to avoid dangers. Take your time. Don't rescue damsels if it is not worth it.

Pathing problem, level 1. Event: "Snakes, I hate Snakes."

. . . Did anybody bother to read this huge post?

yes  

"Cave"--

This area seems balanced.  Everything that can kill you quickly can be handled, if you just learn from your deaths and try again: don't fall on spikes; watch out for arrows; hit "those stupid spiders" before they jump on you.

I would also like to add that inexperienced players should consider suicide if they don't get a good run. Like if you lose life in level 1 and 2 and DON'T get extra bombs, sticky bombs, etc.

A key to getting better at Spelunky is, like any roguelike, to take advantage of your good runs. Then once you get better, you can realistically try to play through a bad start.

"Lush"--

Almost exactly the same, just with two things to note: first, you have to learn new things by dying, but that's no more challenging than before; second, the level generation doesn't seem nearly as balanced as in the caves.  Being required (on pain of death) to use ropes to descend an unviewably-large pit, to use bombs to get past a spike trap in what should have been a clear path, or to use bombs/ropes to get past a tree, is . . . interesting.  But "randomness" means these don't happen all the time (not very often, in my case), so I'm willing to forgive them.

My main problem with this are is that crates, damsels, and chests all too often appear surrounded by rock (completely). The occasional tree or impassible spike totem I can handle. I also tend to find these levels have very quick ways through them (usually down a big pit). Remember to hang off ledges and look down, and drop for the highest point. I rarely have to use ropes to descend, ever.

New players should always try to get to the black market and load up on goods (as well as basically skip a level).

Also frogs are murderous bastards.

"Ice"--

The "wet fur" levels are just as balanced as before: learn to use a limited set of attacks (if any) on these new enemies and you're fine.  However, though the non-"wet fur" levels aren't as brutal as they were before the most recent update, they still change the dynamic of the game.  Having no idea where you're going (without a compass, of course) means gameplay slows to a crawl while you walk around, look down, make small jumps, et cetera.  It is very hard for a new player to handle this area, much less find it "fun."

When I first got here, I found these levels infuriating and impossible, now I enjoy them. For new players, do yourself a favour and invest in climbing gloves and spike shoes (and a cape or jetpack if you can get it). A compass is also a great buy for these levels. Once you get used to it, the ice caves can yield a lot of money and crates (don't forget to use the UFOs to mine out gems and make pathways for you).

"Temple"--

Thankfully, we're back to a learning task: play "bullfighter" with the spike blocks (using yourself as the red cape) or just bomb the dumb things; hit cultists from behind before they see you; and so on.  The only "imbalance" in level generation is that lava pits can get too big and you may need to use a bomb to drain them, so this is somewhat less of a concern here than in the jungle levels.

Bomb the traps. Do not risk an instant death (and don't stand idle next to lava pits, there is a surprise waiting if you do!). In this and the jungle I will often bomb a hole in the floor rather than risking a trap and future unknowns. Having a compass helps of course.

To those complaining about the difficulty of the platforming. Yes, it is hard, but it's not that hard. The key is to go slow and be precise. This is not an action platformer. At most I sometimes have to fight a few more frogs than I like in one go. If you take your time (and you have more than 2 and a half minutes per level) and don't get sidetracked looking for treasure, you can easily get through levels without getting hurt. Just keep looking around for enemies and traps, kill them in sequence, and take what you can. Sometimes, a damsel or idol just isn't worth going for. So don't.

@ Derek

Regarding the score increase, it only occurred when I beat the game the first time (afterwards I have definitely beaten it with way more cash). It's probably a x3 or x4 modifier, as my current score shows over 600K.

I've beaten the game 5 times in 350 tries. The thing is, I beat it every time by starting from level 1.

If you start from level one you can build up your supply of bombs and ropes, collect money to spend in the black market (for a jetpack, especially) or in shops on the way. In world 1, crates of bombs and ropes are plentiful, you can get a mattock in the snake pit level which is great with the udjat eye (you mine out all the gems). Giant spiders give you sticky bombs (SO USEFUL).

The rest is about buying stuff from vendors: climbing gloves, compass, spike shoes. These 3 items make the ice levels much easier to navigate (and there is plenty of money and crates for the taking if you can get to them).

Also, you just have to learn how to take fewer risks, maintain your health, and get through as safely as possible. I died all the time, until I decided to resist the temptation to take minor risks for minor rewards. You could jump up and kill a snake for a bar of gold, but if the chances are you lose a point of health, don't do it if you are trying to beat the game. It's more about knowing when to use bombs and ropes for access to new areas. So if a rope will get you up to a ledge with 2000+ worth of gold, I would generally do it. Often I'm faced with a trap situation, where trying to get through is risky (like a spike totem), so I use a bomb.

Don't give up! You will die, but you will get better!

Atlantunky: Spelantis.

With clockwork robots.

Spelunky definitely needs more steampunk.  Cheerio.

It would be awesome.

Dead Cold meets Abuse, mwa-ha-ha-ha-hah :D

Edit: Am I the only one lucky enough to smell wet fur on three icy levels in a row?

Edit2: Don't see this bug on the list. You can hang on the edges of the unstable platforms in the third area as long as you like - they won't fall off, like they do, when you stand on them.

Yes.  . Though I did smell wet fur one time without a giant yeti anywhere to be found. I was looking forward to taking his loot. 

Having finally beaten the game and gone through it a bunch more, I have a few things I'd like to note.

The game seems like it is done pretty well save for some bugfixes. I think it is great, and there is really only little room for improvement so I'd like you to consider a few minor things.

1. Health recovery is fine the way it is. Recovery through rescue is perfectly fine, as health really doesn't matter much when plenty of things kill you in 1 hit anyway.

2. Superfluous items: As it stands there are a few items that I have never used, and probably will never use. Roguelikes do have items that are less useful, but roguelikes also have better inventory management. Every time I find a machete, I have a damsel or idol in view or in my possession and it is not worth the hassle or ferrying all these items around. Add flares into the mix, and it just gets worse. I have also never found the pitcher's mitt useful. The teleporter I have not used, but I can see how it would be useful (if risky).

3. Casinos are never worth the while. You have programmed it so there is a time limit on the level, and wasting time in the casino is a waste. I am disappointed every time a casino appears instead of a shop, or even nothing as it often cuts off access to other areas. If you want to keep them, why not have them as a random encounter between levels.

Anyway, looking forward to the final version, and still playing and loving the game.

Anyhow, many tears were cried when this happened to me earlier today..


I thought the behavior would stay constant for all the exit doors in the game... possible bug? D: On that note, are there indestructible blocks in the level editor?

Thats indeed a bug (the block shouldnt be able to destroy) but it can be easily solved: Just move away from the door so that it leaves the screen. Move back. The block will be there.
[/quote]

That doesn't work. I moved away and back a ton of times. I explored the level looking for blocks to push there, but to no avail.

[Please fix!]

BUG: I beat the last boss, but the floor tile under the exit door was not indestructible. A bomb frog he spawned exploded destroying the floor underneath it, trapping me inside!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Please fix!

Smaller bug. Thing are still spawning inside the spike totems. I saw a blue gemstone inside one this last run.

DS port. Now!

This game is bringing me back to love frustrating but rewarding games. Too many games are just frustratingly difficult, or passably easy.

Anyway, even with the bugs this game continues to be awesome, and I can't wait for it to be polished to a mirror shine.

P.S.
DS port.

Pathing generation problem?

Level 2, world 1.

I could not proceed without bombing. I was trapped with no way to the exit. It looks like the engine detects kitty-corner blocks as passable. This may also explain why I keep finding treasure chests and damsels surrounded by rock save for 1 spot on the corner. As:

XXX
XTX
OXX

X=Rock, T=Treasure, O=open.

This also happened in world 2, with a spike totem completely blocking my way on the first screen.

Bug: When you bomb out a lake from below (like when using sticky bombs). Only the visible part of the water will drain. This can mean you can climb up a rope into water.

Bug: An Idol in world 1 triggered the falling rock, but the rock destroyed the tiles where it landed. It rolled as normal, but when I went back there was a hole.

Is it just me, or are there less damsels in this build? And there are way more inaccessible pathways. I'm also seeing tons of crates and chests completely surrounded by earth.

Bugs:

1. I put down a teleporter but it got caught on a tree branch. I did not move and attempted to pick it up, but it was suspended in the air slightly. When I moved, it fell on me and I died (I had 3 health at the time). (I've encountered a few other suspicious deaths. Like a monkey killed me when he touched me.)

2. When hanging from a ledge just above a set of spikes I dropped down, and did not die.

3. "A chill runs down your spine" appeared on schedule, just as I went through the exit. On the next level, the text appeared (fortunately, no ghost).

4. When hanging from a wall I selected ropes and tried to throw one down. Instead the rope appeared on the other side of the wall I was hanging from as such:

@WRW
   WWW

@=me, R=rope, W=Wall

5. Died with a cape, and it continued to flap above me, spastically.

6. A rock thrown off screen bounces but only when you move where you can see it. So sometimes you throw a rock, and come back later to find it bouncing.

One gripe I will echo is with ropes, vines, and ladders. The area that you can climb is way too narrow, especially when you need to make come precision moves. Increasing the width that you can grab with up will solve a lot of trouble. It doesn't have to be much.

Great game. Procedural generation for the win.

I agree this game is hard, but once the bugs are ironed out I think it will be fair. For now, fighting most enemies except snakes and bats is usually more trouble than it is worth. Losing damsels to corners or ceilings sucks. I've also been able to snag gems that are inside blocks by touching the corner.

I don't know it it is intentional, but I keep encountering trees that I cannot climb: the highest branch is not high enough for me to reach the top. This seems like a mistake.

I've also noticed that 0.99 seems more picky about the edge of platforms when I try a running jump. As in, I run and try to jump, and I am on the platform, but I don't jump at all.

Anyway, this is a great game. I'd love to see an alternate version where it's an infinite cave. No loading screens, just a cave that goes on forever. A kind of, "see how deep you can go" thing.

I really like this game. I've played it a lot and have really wanted to give you some feedback. It has a ton of potential. My criticism below is meant to be constructive because I believe in this project.

First off, bugs  in 1.02:

Attacking an enemy asteroid, my army of seedlings failed to take it over. They just kept ramming the ground attempting to get into the hole and take over. The asteroid read as though there was one tree left, though there was not.

In the late game, moving many armies causes the game to lose commands. I would order a few dozen swarms of seedlings to move, but they would not all receive the orders. Evidently, there is a limit to the number of commands the game can process.

I was expanding clockwise around the belt. I selected a huge number of seedlings and sent them to the next asteroid, but they proceeded to go the OPPOSITE direction. Evidently, there was a gap that was too large for them to cross. So instead of fighting on an "O" shaped asteroid belt, I was really fighting on a "C" shaped belt. Either the random asteroid placement should always ensure an unbroken circle, or the asteroids should have an aura around them indicating their "atmosphere" where seedlings can travel.

The "Plant Tree" button does not register a click if you click near the edge. As it also closes the asteroid information window, it is highly annoying.

  Interface/Display

The game looks great. The three properties of the asteroids should be explained somewhere besides the tutorial. Also, the asteroid information window (where it displays the amount of seedlings, etc) should indicate how many trees are on the asteroid.

When playing as red seedlings, it is difficult to tell when one of your asteroids is under attack when zoomed all the way out. I also came up against two purple opponents; their colours were nearly indistinguishable.

 :D AI/Challenge

Most of the challenge is in the early stages of the game. I found that about 2/3 games I started right next to an enemy. This is a problem. Random placement should place each starting asteroid at least 2 asteroids apart.

All too often I would also be suicidally attacked by an enemy over and over, until another one came along and killed me. Computer opponents appear to always know where I am.

In other cases AI opponents sent swarms after asteroids in the middle of my empire without apparent reason. They would become obsessed with particular asteroids. There appears to be no strategy here.

On the topic of strategy, there is no geographical advantage to controlling any particular asteroid over another, save for proximity.

Scouting allows you to forever see what forces are located on an enemy asteroid. Perhaps it could simply colour the asteroid the colour of the opponent, and indicate how many trees the seedling saw before it died.

It would be nice to have the option to change the size of the asteroid belt. So you could play a much quicker game on a small asteroid belt, or a huge game on a belt 10 asteroids wide.

  Pacing

This is the biggest problem with this game. The early game is painfully slow. Obviously it should be, but it should still be sped up. Similarly, the late game is far too easy and impossible to micro-manage everything. For the most part I spend the late game sending 32 seedlings per asteroid to one rallying point and then bowling over my enemies without any real resistance. Even the constant attacks against random asteroids in my territory are of no consequence because the AI never sends enough, or if they do I have tons of seedlings nearby to take it back.

I think the solution here is to lower the amount of seedlings you will control in the later stages of the game, while speeding production in the early stages. Perhaps your home asteroid could be particularly fertile (as would enemy home asteroids).

  Game features

As is the game doesn't have much strategy besides early expansion, but there is so much you could do to improve this game:

- Asteroid properties.

Size would be a simple property to implement. Larger asteroids are physically larger, and capable of having more trees and growing more seedlings. They are obviously more valuable and harder to colonize. Smaller asteroids would also be possible and interesting.

The current asteroid qualities do not have enough impact on the game because micromanaging the seedlings is impossible. As such asteroid properties might be better applying to trees and seedling production. So you could have an asteroid that is more fertile being more valuable, because it speeds production. You could have a rock to soil ratio, where more rocky asteroids cost more seedlings to make trees, but the trees are harder to destroy.

- Geography

Currently the ring shaped belt is interesting, but has no meaning when seedlings can travel wherever they want without trouble (unless, as I indicated above) there is a large gap. Besides the time it takes to get somewhere, there are no limitations on movement, and no reason to control or attack any particular asteroid. Geography should play a larger role and can in several ways:

Range of seedlings. Seedlings can only travel to nearby asteroids. This would prevent early game rushes by enemy AI (assuming you ensure that they are not randomly placed adjacent to you). This makes expansion slower, and territory control more essential, but it adds an element of strategy. You could also implement trees that allow you to send seedlings further. The idea of trees growing and snaring other asteroids is also compelling.

Moving asteroids. Considering range as a property of the seedlings, I would LOVE it if the asteroids moved relative to each other. The belt as a whole could drift in one direction, but some asteroids would be faster than others. You could eliminate collisions (the asteroids have some form of repulsive property). Smaller asteroids would move further to avoid larger asteroids, which would in turn move a small distance out of the way. In this game, choosing how to expand is complicated by the movement of your territory, and fast asteroids are useful for spreading over larger distances, but they would also be subject to attack from enemies more often as they move into their territory.

- New trees

There are many options. Defensive is the most obvious, though coupled with geographical changes range-boosting trees, or trees that grow asteroids together would be very interesting. At the very least defensive trees could attack moving swarms of seedlings passing by your territory (assuming seedlings have no limit on how far they can travel).

 

I look forward to seeing whatever you do with this game. I've really enjoyed it so far, and hope you continue to work on it.