the entire armed with wings series, patapon, probably some more i dunno

@shig-

OK LETS DO THIS

1. the problem isnt sexy characters!! the problem is making EVERY CHARACTER sexy whether they have a reason to be or not! if ryu stuck his butt out every time he did a hadouken or had a perpetual, visible erection and it was just treated as a normal thing or "fanservice", you would feel uncomfortable.

2.
yeah, good point. diverse as fuck.

3. YOU CANT FIGHT IN A MINISKIRT, and you sure as hell cant win in one

4. do you really think blue mary has decided not to wear a bra because ITS AN IMPORTANT PART OF HER CHARACTERIZATION TO EXPRESS HER SEXUALITY, or is it because teenage boys like bouncing boobs?

5. no its that even though she's shown as serious and professional, as soon as the fight is over she turns into a literal child.

6. do you think that say, dhalsim would be a better character if he looked like ryan gosling? do you think his "ugly" appearance is a detriment to his character? also, the male gaze bullshit isnt about how sex is bad and should never be shown, its that it shouldnt be ubiquitous and it shouldn't be as ingrained into gaming as it is. i have said that so many fucking times, its not hard.

7. every one of those aside from peacock are thin, traditionally attractive, busty, and young and every character you didnt post (as well as painwheel) is half naked. its incredibly fucked up that a game with an all female cast that there's such a ridiculous lack of diversity and contains so much pandering to young heterosexual male players. I CANNOT MAKE THIS CLEAR ENOUGH: EVEN THE GAME WITH AN ALL FEMALE CAST AND A SKILLED CHARACTER DESIGNER AT THE HELM ISNT THE LEAST BIT FOCUSED ON THE POTENTIAL FEMALE AUDIENCE.

speed buster from no more heroes is another good example


but the thing is, if you searched through every video game you would probably only find a handful of unattractive female characters who arent witches or something like that, and while most video games arent even as diverse as street fighter when it comes to male characters, you will still manage to find a sizeable amount of males of different ages, sizes, and skill sets, while most females are still stuck being thin, traditionally attractive, and using moves which show off their hot bods.

edit:
@madk-

it really isnt any better in other genres. even if you can post a handful of positively portrayed women, there's still virtually no diversity and its still an exception rather than the rule.

its not about tits, it has NEVER BEEN about tits, or at least not entirely. thats just the stupid title of the thread. anyway, as for those examples: parasoul is the exact same busty supermodel body type as every character in the game, plus she's wearing a miniskirt with no pants for no reason. shermie wears a miniskirt and has a boob window despite being in a fighting tournament. blue mary is pretty cool and is shown as muscular and tough, but she still has the unnecessary bouncing boobs. chun-li is also pretty cool, but still has panty shots and is regularly infantilised. further, all of these characters are busty, thin, supermodel looking types (aside from chun-li's legs) and really show very little diversity in general. again, im not saying these are BAD characters, just that they are marred by an unnecessary focus on sexuality that has NOTHING to do with their character.

that doesnt mean that its okay for men to treat womens' sexuality as a form of fucking currency, and that doesnt begin to invalidate what he said about the whole slut/prude dynamic that fucks over every woman who is the least bit open about their sexuality.

seriously, you cant really say this stuff is problematic in the real world then say it doesnt matter because its just videogames. media shapes our views of the world, and developers need to deal with shit like this responsibly. a game that actually dealt with and acknowledged the issues that women face and how their sexuality is viewed as currency or taboo would be great if it was handled well, but its not okay for games to become a part of these issues, even if its just the developer "expressing" his sexist-ass ideas. its not that we should censor them, but that doesnt mean it doesnt need to be discussed and that we shouldnt try to turn it around in what ways we can.

lol why is sex appeal so commonly a weapon for women but never for men? why is it even a weapon in the first place

Because culturally female sexuality has far more exchange value than male sexuality? (I was going to respond to this post with an ellipsis and mock-confusion or something but then I remembered I saw this paper recently.)

and that is kind of a problem in how women are portrayed. female sexuality shouldnt be viewed as a resource to be earned by men, or as something dangerous and alien. that kind of thinking is one of the reasons for both slut-shaming and the idea of "friendzoning" (the idea that female sex is something that should be earned by men and that women are "bitches" if they dont hold out their end of the bargain)

[for women]

Riddle me this, where does the Male power fantasy originate from? to me, it seems obvious that it's yet another thing based on our instincts. Both genders wants to (Subconsciously, yadayada) be attractive to the opposite gender and both genders have different criteria for this. A female would typically want a strong, protective male that can help feed her and their offspring and the male's instincts reflects on this. We feel better when we're strong enough to protect and keep the women we've proven our worth too.

In short, if you want to analyze it deeper, the "Male power fantasy" originates from the criteria women have on males during the stone age. Of course, the goal of it still to appeal men but it's not as simple as "Only men want this".

ahahahahahahah fucking WOW you are literally saying that the double standard of strong male and female characters in video games is OKAY because of some biotruther bullshit about how all women are attracted to men who are strong and can protect their offspring?? YEAH NO SEXISM HERE, THIS IS JUST THE FACTS

Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women

A feminist is "an advocate or supporter of the rights and equality of women"

the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

Read trough and think. As I said, the focus is on women rather than both sexes. It's about making women equal to men rather than vice versa. I.E give women the same rights as men. As I said, there's nothing wrong with that, but the fact still remains that men mostly are ignored by it.

the equality of women. equality doesnt mean focusing entirely on women, equality means making EQUAL. ITS NOT EQUAL IF YOU ARE ONLY FOCUSING ON HALF OF THE ISSUE. seriously though, you clearly do think of all feminists as the powerpuff girl villain from the tropes vs women video, but the whole point of that video is that real life feminists arent moralizing assholes who think that men should become subservient slaves, THEY ARE JUST PEOPLE WHO WANT WOMEN TO STOP BEING TREATED LIKE SHIT.

insert "the problem is that it's 95% of what exists" here

yet everyone assumes any character who exposes some skin is automatically terrible

"no its not about tits, the problem is characters who are there just to be sexy"
I mention Skullgirls characters, who are developed and awesome in every way, but happen to have tits, and therefore are terrible, forever.

"no its not about not being enough normal women in games"
There are no normal men in games either, and 95% of them are, in fact, caricatures of sexy people.

These three complaints are all valid, but ultimately, they are rationalizations that you came up with after what really bothers you happened. They are excuses, and all this shit will always boil down to "tits are bad", and no progress will be made untill people learn to not point their finger and yell "HERESY" whenever someone mentions that maybe a character having tits isn't the end of the world.

ok, you are missing the entire point. the problem isnt that female characters are sexualized. the problem is that EVERY female character is sexualized, whether it is actually relevant to their character or not. samus is a great example of this, before the zero suit was introduced, she wasnt particularly sexualized (aside from the dumb "samus in a bikini" prizes for finishing the game), she was just a tough silent protagonist who got shit done. sexuality has NOTHING to do with her character, just like it often has nothing to do with tough male characters. then the zero suit comes along and, rather than a tough and cool lady under the suit, we get a skinny supermodel who sticks her ass out at every opportunity. this kind of sexualization is at the expense of the character and for the sake of titilating exclusively the heterosexual male viewer. im not saying samus should be the hunchback of notre dame, but make her look like someone who can explore a planet and fight off aliens for hours, make her look strong, oh, sort of like SHE ALREADY DID. notice how much more practical this suit looks than the modern zero suit, and samus herself looks traditionally attractive, but nonetheless muscular and lean and not exactly like a victoria secret model. it FITS WITH HER CHARACTER. and this isnt even getting into the fucking piece of shit attempts at "characterization" for samus in other m.

sorry for the text wall, i had a few pages of catching up to do.

edit: woops i forgot to even get into skullgirls, but i'll make it short. i agree the skullgirls characters have positive traits and are in some ways well designed, and im not saying that is rendered moot by the sexism and "fanservice", but its nonetheless a detriment to both the game and the characters and serves to alienate the possible female audience the game could've had.

1-these threads are funny because no women never participate, it's a lways a bunch of white-knighting proto-males complaining about the machist videogame industry and gamers, AS IF THESE THINGS WERE MONOLITHIC.
The videogame industry and the gamers are objectifyed much more than women in these threads, but it's okay because we are 'indie' and feminized to the max


2-

how do you unfollow a thread?

like a woman, the best way to stop following it, is putting it in a shallow grave in a place that you can visit often (ex: a park). Make it yours forever.

wow you are so fucking cool i dont even know how i LIVED before i met you. how can you be so chill and flippant about things? its... fucking unbelievable!! teach me to fly, sweet dragon. teach me to live

In the street fighter example, the female side has Rose, Makoto, Karin, Ibuki, etc. who's costumes are more geared towards function or fashion than sexuality, and who all have strong personalities or strong roles.

The sexuality in Skullgrils is part of the theme of Skullgirls, so of course all female characters are geared towards it. The game is mostly the visual direction of a single artist so the characters are mostly designed to his concept of beauty which is something that I don't feel should change at all. Part of being an artist is to express your desires, opinions, etc.

Not all female characters are sex-focused in all games (an example that quickly pops into mind is one of my favorite characters, Jade from Beyond Goood & Evil). Where they are sex-focused in a generally exaggerated setting I don't think it is so bad (unless we're talking a game for kids), but where it is a serious setting I think it is pretty ridiculous and often an outright immersion-killer. I don't disagree that changes need to be made, I disagree that everything needs to be changed. We need alternatives not censorship or hand-binding.

nobody is arguing for censorship, but if people make discriminatory statements in games, it has to be dealt with, especially when it permeates throughout the entire medium. its not about censorship, its about asking developers to deal with an issue maturely and responsibly. alex ahad was EXTREMELY irresponsible in designing an entirely female cast, a rarity in itself, and gearing it visually entirely towards heterosexual males with his exact ideal for attractive women. everytime people ask why girls dont play "hardcore" video games, its not because their brains are wired differently and they can only play pony shit with pink ribbons and cotton candy, its because the developers, the players, and the artists all alienate them with this bullshit.

Female body types in Street Fighter:

Eye candy:
- Rose
- C. Viper
Huge breasts, fit but not really athletic.

Athletic:
- Cammy
- Makoto
- Juri
- Ibuki
- Sakura (a bit small, though)
These girls look like fighters. Makoto will forever be my favorite, by the way.

Ridiculous and nasty:
- Chun Li
Her legs, yuck. And it's weird because her legs in Tatsunko vs. Capcom and Marvel vs. Capcom 3 are okay, but in the SFIV games? Eww.

So yeah, Street Fighter is pretty okay for this. And with guys we have strong, muscular fighters, leand and ripped fighters, obese fighters, etc.

ok seriously, most of the people you post as "athletic" are all skinny young girls with similar sized bodies, and you decry the slightest bit of body variety, where they give her muscles where there ought to be, as "gross"
wow. ok.

@jwk5-

the problem isnt that characters are sexualized, some people express their sexuality in that way and its ok to represent that. the problem is that EVERY female character is sexualized. its not about practicality or making it realistic, its about unfairly representing HALF OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION as toys for the other half to get their jollies off. even if you feel like arguing that characters like ryu are sexualized to the degree of the female characters, which is pretty laughable in itself (honestly i would say urien is the only male character who is really sexualized to any meaningful degree), the male side still has dhalsim, oro, honda, and hugo who dont fit into the traditional idea of an attractive male AT ALL. if you want to go to skullgirls, the problem isnt that characters are sexualized (although sexualizing an underage schoolgirl character is gross as fuck by itself), its that ALL of them are sexualized and in the exact same way. every character has a virtually identical body type and NONE of them look like the bodies of fighters. gross male gaze "fanservice" just makes it worse and further alienates the female audience of A GAME WITH AN ENTIRELY FEMALE CAST. obviously its not as important as the issues of real life women, but its still a big issue with the industry and it should be dealt with.

edit:
ok a friend showed me this, which shows male and female athletes in peak condition. with both genders its hella diverse, and street fighter really does do a better than average job of showing a diverse array of them... but mostly only with the men. chun-li is the closest thing they have to a really different body type, and she's still pretty close to a traditionally attractive shape. if more games showed that kind of diversity in both men and women, it wouldnt alienate people so much, it would give character designs much more flavour and variety, and it would more accurately represent what athletic people look like in real life.

@richard kain-
yeah i was trying to get at that with the talk about body variety, and street fighter is definitely not the worst when it comes to that. i was just using it as an overarching example. in particular makoto from street fighter III is a great example of street fighter's strong points in this area, as she is very muscular in a believable way and isnt really sexualized at all. i still think that street fighter would be better if there was more variety in the bodies though. there are many ways to be strong, even for women, and it would be great to see the level of body variety given to the male characters, like dhalsim or honda.

honestly, i find that in many ways that makes it worse. in other genres, a sexualized character can still be made cool and interesting by their actions and the story, and the objectification (or whatever you'd like to call it) can feel like more of an unfortunate distraction than a gamebreaker. in fighting games, where the character's design and movements are literally EVERYTHING the character has as far as characterization goes, an overly sexualized character can be nothing more than that. i mean, say what you want about how mai shiranui is a Deeply Nuanced Character with Complex Motivations, she exists to show off her ass and for her boobs to bounce. its especially a shame because this "design is everything" philosophy often does wonders for the variety and originality of male characters. street fighter II is a great example of this, despite some unfortunate racial stereotyping. the variety of body types is outstanding compared to games of other genres. all the characters are iconic and have extremely unique designs and colour schemes. meanwhile, the two main female characters, chun-li and cammy, are both sexualized, traditionally attractive young women of similar body types who have panty shots and dumb shit. im not saying they are bad designs, just that it would've been great for the game to have more representation of female characters and had given them the variety given to the male characters. street fighter III arguably did a much better job in both avoiding racial stereotypes and female representation as, although there are still few female characters compared to male, they werent ALL sexualized and had much more variety in appearance.

oh yeah man, humanity totally arose in this weird symbiotic wheel of oppression in which somehow no groups whatsoever are at fault or profit from it and everyone gets to feel bad for themselves. thats totally possible.

holy SHIT you are a fucking idiot. alright, first of all, everyone in the world cant be oppressed because then there's no fucking oppressor. there is no possible way for a society to develop where every group is equally oppressed, that doesnt make any sense.
also, women back then werent controlling wasp-women who manipulated all the mens with their woman-parts, men fought to defend them because they were all but considered the man's property. plus, that really only happened in the upper class. a few hundred years ago, if a woman who lived in poverty was sexually assaulted, it was barely considered an offense.

"Hey, both sexes are being oppressed but in different manners."

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHA OK THEN

seriously if you actually fucking believe that sexism against men is even REMOTELY comparable to the institutionalized sexism against women that we have then you are an ignorant motherfucker indeed. yes, its true that men are forced into roles in society, and that it is sickening that men are looked down at for being queer or for taking on any so-called "feminine" attributes. BUT, you really cant ignore that all of that happens to women except on a WAY larger scale and a hell of a lot more. the pay gap, the double standards when it comes to sexuality, rape culture, and shit like that is SO MUCH WORSE than any sort of descrimination straight white guys will ever have to face.

ahahahahahaha holy fuck

ok while i'd love to indulge your reddit misandrist bullshit, i really cant be arsed right now and seeing as you clearly dont know the meaning of objectivity, you have something of a victim complex, and you are casually endorsing pedophelia, im just gonna go now.

edit: ok i changed my mind. sinclair made a really good point that, holy shit!! tons of fucking men view women as sex objects, and the entire media tells them thats okay by constantly turning the women they portray into sex objects! saying david beckham is objectified as much as women is pretty laughable, seeing as he is an ATHLETE, and the reason he is famous is for his achievements. even in menial jobs and ESPECIALLY in stuff like acting, women are judged considerably on their appearance, whereas men are judged solely on their skills. THAT is fucking objectification, and that is something that you might notice happens all the fucking time in the real world if you could take your head out of your self-pitying ass for a couple of minutes

i do agree with you largely and i think this may just be a semantics argument, but the way i see it is that, even though one character obviously cant paint a developer's views on women, if they are consistently portraying women as mere sex objects then they are showing that that is how they think women should be represented. in this sense, they are objectifying real women by showing that they think all women should be represented this way. either way, whether it is "objectification" or not, its still a pretty serious issue in mainstream gaming and i would definitely describe it as worse than tactless. its shutting out and belittling literally half of the world's population and shows a serious level of immaturity that has to be addressed if people want the medium to be taken seriously at all.

you can definitely objectify fictional characters because, although they are definitely not living things, they should be attempting to represent living things. anything with a human image is generally meant to represent a human, and so when all the ladies are shown as sex objects who only exist to titilate the heterosexual male viewer, its indicating how the developer/artist/whatever thinks women should be represented.

Oh, you talking about objectification now? Well you know what? It's okay to objectify, it's in our nature to objectify each other to some degree and nothing that can actually change. Furthermore (Oh, you better hold onto your asses, assholders, this is going to blow your mind), you can objectify someone and STILL view the person as an individual human being. You can think "Man, I'd TAP THAT ANY DAY" and still know he or she is an individual with feelings of their own.

ok, just to be clear, your entire post was just fucking..... wow. i mean CHRIST. but this paragraph is like a black hole of stupid bullshit. the word objectification literally means to make into an object. thats the root of the fucking word. you cant make someone into an object and still view them as a human, thats a pretty big contradiction!! also, you can be attracted to someone without reducing them to an object or a pleasure machine or whatever gross shit you think of.

ok, the first half of the movie was really strong. i liked how bruce got all fucked up by his years of crime fighting, and the breaking the bat scene was up there with the best scenes in the trilogy. the second half kind of fell apart though. thematically, i would've preferred if blake had become batman at the halfway point and the rest of the movie had focused on bruce mentoring him to defeat bane. also, talia's reveal was really well set up, but even though she is this legendary warrior that the ENTIRE MOVIE has been building up to, all she does is drive a car then die. despite all the buildup between her and bruce before then, they dont even confront each other after she stabs him. also, her arrival marks the moment that bane is basically tossed out the window despite being a huge villain up to that point. if she wanted to destroy the city all along, why did bane do the whole revolution thing instead of just detonating it? still, i liked it overall. it just really didnt make a lot of sense overall and it really could've been a much better ending to the trilogy if they had fleshed out the themes better.