Hi guys and gals...

I wanted to talk a bit about 3rd person cameras and how they react when a wall comes between the camera and the player character.
This may seem like a topic for the "Technical" board, but I am not really interested in implementations code wise, but in the different ways the problems of camera vs. wall interactions could be resolved.

Mainly I can see two valid ways of handling the interaction:

1. Collision of the camera to character vector with the level geometry and then moving the camera to the player until the collision is resolved.
This has the problem that the camera could land inside the characters head or you would end up in his crotch area etc.
This is used in almost every 3rd person game.
 
2. Just don´t show the parts, which would occlude the player character.

Well, way number 1. works fine most of the time, but I get the feeling that it gets pretty irritating in tight areas like cave tunnels etc.

Way number 2. is what I am working on at the moment. First I thought this was a pretty cool idea, but I am not so sure anymore, as it can look pretty bad.
Let me show you some screens...


Nothing special is happening here, everything looks normal.


Now we rotate the camera a little bit and part of the camera view would end up inside a wall, so we just do not render these areas. But what should we do with the inside of the wall...just paint it black.


Now we did a 180 and are behind the character. With a normal 3rd person camera, we would end up VERY close to the character, but here the distance from character to camera remains the same. But look at all those black areas (the "inside" of the walls). Pretty ugly, right ?

Oh...and note the area in the second picture at the right border. You are able to see the outside surroundings of the cave. This could be solved with thicker cave walls, but there would be many times one could view a neighbouring room.

What I am trying to to with this game is capturing the feeling of a 2D platformer, where the distance from camera to player character is always the same. Normal 3D person cameras just do not give me this oldschool platformer feeling.

Now I want to ask you people, what you think about 3rd person cameras. Are there any other ways ? Is there anybody out there who feels the same way, that the colliding cameras do not capture the 2D feeling ?
Is someone okay with sometime seeing mostly undefined black areas like in my camera system ? Or is it even more irritating then the close up zooms of colliding cameras ?

Wow, they really got Baldurs Gate! Amazing and for just 9.99$ ... REALLY amazing, as there is absolutely no way to get the game for example at amazon bundled with the second part. And the website is totally brand new...

WHAT THE FUCK?! They needed to fuck with us and keep me from my games for a week just for some overhaul of their site in the background and some search filters, they really got some nerves.
They should release BG for free to make peace with their customers or at least put up a version, which includes the highres mods and community fixes in a complete and bug free package, which would make the download more interesting, than buying the game on disc.

But they are back and got BG, which everyone will wet their pants about and buy the game for the 6th time and backlash will from now on only go against people who are pissed by gogs behaviour.

I like gog and I am happy, that they do not add DRM to their games and I will continue to buy games from them. I am jsut saying, that we should not let them get away with their stunt that easily. It was a dick move by them and they should have to do more to reasure that they are here for us.

Whats more convenient than downloading a zip file with 1000 NES games?
Yeah, I know it is illegal right now, but I hope, that someday soon Nintendo releases that stuff to the public for free.
And emulation on a PC is much better than on the Wii, as you have much more options and I can play the 60hz versions, unlike with the Wii, where I am stuck with shitty 50hz versions, which absolutely makes no sense. This is just another example, that "pirates" got the better product, more features, less annoying ... no programs to launch, just to start a game, no company logos and copyright notices you can't skip when you want to watch a DVD, no stupid Itunes, just to put some songs on your device.
This is all just plain wrong.
And to come back to GOG ... speculation is, that they integrate some sort of DRM, if they relaunch, so they can get more games more easily. Why the hell should the rights holder care if Baldurs Gate is a downloadable without DRM?! The game is fucking old, there are torrents every where. This is just corporate bullshit!

So, wait, you're mad about not being able to play your Steam bought game because Steam has died and the game can't be authenticated, despite Steam not being dead and statements from Steam explaining that if that should happen, they'll just remove the authentication?

I'm confused.

How hard is it to play through a scenario for some of you?
Steam sure as hell is not dead, but there is a possibility that they could go down. Look at Origin, look at Westwood, look at Sega, look at Square (wo almost died with their Final Fantasy movie) and the list goes on.
The do not even have to die, someone just has to buy them and everything could be different.

And I Gabe Newell talks shit all the time. Maybe he is right about Valve games, but as it was said before ... do you really think, that for example Activision would allow Valve to release a crack, which removes essentialy the copy protection from their game?

Books don't go through a technological evolution. Video games do. Just like movies. VHS -> DVD -> Bluray. If you don't want to rebuy it, just hold on to your game/movie and your computer/player. People choose to upgrade to a new system because it gives a better experience (to those people).

Here we are again at the Wii store and its 8bit and 16bit titles. I don´t think it is a good thing, that we have to pay again for the games on this platform. Yes, I do not have a right to demand my copy of Super Mario Bros. 3 for my real NES to give me a free Wii Rom download. But I don´t see, why it is bad to want something like that. If Nintendo was a nice company, they would give us these games for free.
People have the games on their old systems and now buy them again, because they

are sheepled to the idea that it is OKAY to buy and rebuy and rebuy again a videogame (or a movie) every time a new technological device is released

If you really like a game, is it really that much of a hassle to rebuy it?

Yes it can be, read my last post from some seconds ago. There are steam exclusive titles and all the other closed systems on consoles. Ha, this will be fun when the next generation of consoles comes around and none of my downloaded games will run on the new systems.

And you don´t have want to play all your games, it is just a principle, I pay for something, I want to use it ... forever, without paying for it again.
But my list of titles I want to have with me forever is quite big anyway. I am quite a bit into videogame history and I am sure many will be after me. Maybe my daugther wants to dive into the videogame past someday and want to play all the old games from 8bit to our present time and beyond. There is a possibility, that she would have to live with a gap between now and the day we finally got rid of DRM protected content. And this makes me sad as a devoted gamer.

Now if people are legitimately upset over buying products via download and not having access later then I don't know what to say, since losing the download isn't really much different than me buying Zelda 3 for the SNES then losing the cartridge when I moved. (True story)

I hope I did not misinterpret this, as "I don't know what to say" sound like you can´t believe people are so stuipd to demand the download...if I did, than ignore the rant down here...

And what the fuck ?! You think people are crazy to demand to be able to re-download something they bought from someone who gives them his word, that they will be able to re-download the game. In other words, People are crazy for wanting to be able to use something as advertised. Giving me a way to re-download my stuff is the responsibility of the service provider. Taking care of your cartridge is your responsility and if you want to trust a service provider more, than yourself ... be my guest.
The comparison would be more something like your Zelda died on you after one day of play and now you want to use your warranty, but Nintendo is no more.

Ha, I got something better ...
Retail copy world: You lost your Zelda game, you go to ebay, you buy a new one, you are happy.
Download world: You buy Fear 2 for Windows (a steam only title, at least my uk copy is), you install it on steam. Two years later you want to play it again, steam is dead, you have no chance to ever play the game again (yeah, let us just suppose there is no crack for the game).

what are we talking about now?
gog is not steam. Your obsession with steam is fascinating, Mr. Straw Man.
also, steam is not dead and blah blah blah.

Yes I know, that steam is not dead, but GOG seems to be and bigger companies than Valve have died before, so never say never. And if you would read my posts, you would realize, that I like the GOG system. After the GOG desaster we should be allowed to discuss these things and express our concerns about download portals, who have very bad DRM like steam has for most games.
One can´t seriously take something like VVVVVV for an example to prove, that steam isn´t that bad. It is a small indie title, you could buy from the maker himself, DRM free. YOu have to take something from a big company like Take2, which sure as hell is not playable without a connection to steam or at least an activation once through steam.

In which game on steam you can't play offline? Once as you install it, you can disconnect form network and play...  Roll Eyes

Well, offline mode never worked for me, but I haven´t tried it for a while, but I am not alone with this problem. And this will only help until you have to install your OS again or buy a new system.

I just don´t get it, why people defend something like steam or Itunes or the Wii store or Xblox live or D2D or gamers gate or Telltale. If games have to be downloaded, they should be DRM free, so I could backup and restore them as often as I want, even on another PC which was never ever connected to the internet.

And yes, GOG did not have these problems, but we have yet to see, if we can really re-download our games from them on thursday and for how long. I have a pretty slow Internet connection and it would take me some days to re-download everything. Yes, I have most games as a backup, but what if I did not. And I am not supposed to care for a backup, as these services always state, that I can re-download everything as often as I want.

Oh, I need to add/corect something. I did not really meant to say, that old stuff should be in the public domain, I meant that they should be freeware, so the right holder still has control over, who is able to sell the old product. BUT you can download it, share it, copy it, you are just not allowed to sell it.
This way you finally legalise abandonware, but the corporations still can make money, as many people would still buy the game, because they want the extra material, perfect working versions, etc.

it's maaaaagicaaaal.

Yes it is totaly magical, if you found a way to play ALL your Steam games offline, when Steam is dead and there is no Valve-crack, which will NEVER exist. Your backup copy of your Steam data is worth nothing.
GOG is a completely different thing, as I said before it is DRM free!
But even then a backup needs space and you can loose a backup, too. So I can live with DRM free downloads, but for me it is a way to get "obscure" stuff like indie titles or old games.
And besides sales, Steam is ALWAYS much more expensive, than buying the game from a british online retailer

But even with GOG I have my problems ... same as with the WII store. Why should I pay again for something I bought 15 years ago. Well, GOG does some cool thing, that the games could be run on modern systems (I hope they sponsor dosbox somehow, as they use it for DOS titles), but anyway I think, that something, which is over 10 years old should be in the public domain.
Lets look at Nintendo. Do they really need the income from the WII store ... no, they swim in money and the WII store brings in only peanuts. Making the store free or taking more realistic prices would be good advertisement to buy a WII.
With titles from GOG ... hmmm ... most of the studios which made the games on GOG do not exist anymore or are run by totaly different people.
Now start whining, that I want old titles to be free, but keep in mind, that NOONE is entitled for copyrights etc. our society has just made up some rules, so people with ideas have a way to protect them. Not that big corporations can profit from these ideas eons after the creative people died, but that is the way it is today ... which is totaly not a good thing.
Look at the problems "The silver lining" had with Activision, because those fuckers are uptight assholes, who only think about money (they don´t need) and strange product rights in the USA. I bet most people at Activision don´t even know who made Kings Quest.

No one thinks that. What the fuck?

Then go and read some threads when steam is discussed for example in the neogaf forum. Most people seem to have their steam client running all the time and often complain about retail games, because they are not added natively to the steam client.
There are people out there, who would never buy a game from a retail store, because of that!

And about the "you don´t own shit thing". Yes, EULAs for retail games are similar to online bought games, but most EULAs won´t hold up in a court anyway, at least not here in Germany.
So the argument, that you don´t own the game is highly questionable and with retail, I own at least the disc and the bytes on the disc.

But anyway, having a physical disc, when the publisher, retailer etc. goes under is a much better way to retrieve your game. You do not have to depend on a last re-download which may or may not be available.
And downloading the game from a torrent etc. is not an option, because that would be piracy. Using a crack on the data from your own disc should be okay in most countries.

Edit: And I am not fighting download services, I just don´t want to depend on a service to be there. Because of this, gog.com is MUCH MUCH cooler than steam, because it is DRM free!

Doing some minimal research before posting baseless crap is PRETTY COOL MANG though.

Well I think the post before this quote was maybe a bit drastic, but I think the same way. Well I bought quite some games from steam, gog, d2d etc. but I rather buy from retail, as I will have something physical.

You don´t own shit, when buying from download services.

The steam people always say, that if they go under, they will release a program to patch/crack the games. BUT you have to have the games on your hard drive first and there actually has to be a patch.
And both points will be a problem. Do you really think, that when steam goes under, they will pay the servers for a long enough span of time, so that everybody can re-download all their games ... yeah ... in your dreams.
And the patch ... maybe for Valves own games, but do you really think a publisher will allow them to release a crack ... ARE YOU PEOPLE HIGH ?!

Yes, Steam makes a lots of money, but other companies made lots of money too and died because of bad management.
What about d2d or gamers gate ... they are small fishes compared to steam.

On another note: I never understood, why it is so cool having to run a slow and buggy software like the steam client, just to play a game. Is this because people are to stupid to find a game in the Explorer and click on an exe file ? Bah ... I think I am getting old ...

I need some feedback, how I should proceed with my indie game career
I could not make the compo, but I want to go on and someday release a real game to the public.
Some days ago I started a blog, because I think it will keep me working on games, so I have something to post there.
The address is http://poisonstudio.wordpress.com/.
Please tell me, if you think, that this is a shameless plug, I will remove this link asap.
But I don´t try to gather viewers, just tell me if a blog helped you focus on your work.

Right now I am designing a little bit on a game, which shares the engine and some ideas wit dying noises. I really liked the whole up in the air stuff. If I can work out some issues, the new game might be about flying around in a world like the on of my failed attempt here.

Okay, I am canceling the game. I just could not do it in the time frame. All I got are some sprites standing around and you could talk to them or kill them by clicking on them.

The project was just to big and ambitious for me to do in one month, with all the stuff going on in life. 5 years ago, when I was still at the university and did not have a child I could do small games in one night easily, but now...well I have to get up, when my kid needs me and not, when I got enough sleep.
I hope you guys do not take this as lame excuses, I really did work on the project every night and even if the game does not make the competition, I got so much work done on my "engine", so the next try at a game might be much more successful.

So, now I am thinking about releasing some sort of walk around demo. Does this make any sense ? And what if I finish the game later, should I just keep posting in this thread or should I put it elsewhere on the board.

Again, I am very sorry and I wish all contestants all the luck in the world

Why does it not work out that smoothly all the time. Some shader changes, here a collision check more, there some value tweaking and I am happy how it works and the best thing is, everything can now be controlled by the mouse ... saves me from coding a keymapping menu

Damn it...damn it...damn it...I am just not happy with how the game is turning out. I think I will change the viewpoint from the Zelda 64 like view to a more pushed back perspective like in typical isometric games (think Diablo).
The battle system just is not really fun with the Zelda view and I have all kinds of problems with multiple enemies because of the "not-so-realtime" system.
Right now, the player pauses the games to get a mouse cursor to issue commands and click on enemies and I just hate it...it is no fun.
With a view farther away from the character I can use point and click walking instead of WASD and it is okay not to be able to rotate the view all the time, as you see more of the world. The result is, that I always have a mouse cursor to do stuff.

And well...I always liked the more isometric viewpoint better in RPGs anyway . When I can implement it and it works I am free to add party gameplay in future games.

There are some technical problems, because the engine essentially is just on big pile of polygons. For the isometric view, I will throw out the camera which collides with geometry and zooms in on the player character in narrow spots. So now I have to find other ways to deal with obstructing geometry.
Think of going inside a house. Outside you can see everything fine, but when you enter the house the roof should disappear, which is kinda hard to do with a polygon soup.

Well, I have some ideas and first tests seem to proof, that I can do it...so back to work.

Ahhh...screw it, I am doing "only" a Vagrant Story battle system clone (minus the targeting of body parts). Everything else is just to much trouble.

Ha...the extension is absolutely great. I am on a two weeks vacation now and the kid is the only distracting factor now (well...there still is Starcraft 2).
I got quite some things done and the engine finally is somewhat complete, but there is still so much assets to be done and I did not yet add the battle system.

The problem here is, that I want the game to be a RPG and I like stats, inventories and I am NOT a fan of realtime battle systems like in Kotor, Mass Effect or Final Fantasy 12 (but at least there you had enough control over the party).
My game will feature only a single character instead of a party so first I thought, I have to do a realtime system, but who am I to tackle something like Diablo 2. But thankfully there are other options like Secret of Mana or Vagrant Story (which have kinda single character Kotor-like systems)... AND Panzer Dragoon RPG, which has a quite cool battle system, because you have to exploit weak enemy spots.

So to make it short, I am trying to do some mix between the Vagrant Story/Panzer Dragoon battle systems. Enemies will be visible on the field and you can attack them or be attacked. The game will not change to a special battle screen (I would have to do extra assets), but will focus on the area, the battle is happening. Then the hero will focus on the enemy and move around him Zelda 64 lock-on style and attack, when some kind of action bar filled up.
So all in all nothing new, maybe even not fun at all, but we have to see...maybe I can´t get that thing to work and you will see "point-click-kill--super-lame-diablo-clone"-system. 

Yeah...patience...I almost did not have any left ... BUUUUUT I finally got my shit together and solved the coding problem at work (and it looks awesome).

Then I came home and in a matter of minutes I could fix the last collision bugs, which were bothering me (and kept me awake until 2.00 in the morning, because Bullet is not as easy to use as I first thought...but great stuff anyway).

Hopefully I can do some more work on the game today, when the kid is in bed. I would love to go into crunch mode for the rest of the competition, but I don´t see it because of the family. God, I love them, but sometimes...

I am getting kinda pissed at coding these days ... had to think for about 8 hours straight at work about a problem (and could not solve it).
When I got home I almost did not want to work on the game, as I found some VERY bad collision bugs, which I could not solve either. But I just took the Bullet collision library and within the hour my collision problems vanished. Well there is some jittering, which I have to get rid of, but else everything works nicely

But there is still not enough content to warrant a demo, I am just crossing my fingers for the extension.

Oh my god...an extension would be awesome

The game is picking up steam a little bit right now. I finally got around adding items, which you can pick up and drop somewhere else (a little bit like in Ultima6-8).
The biggest problem for me until now, was loading all the different resources like pictures, sprites, definitions for the stats of items, gui dialogs etc. In the last days I made some good progress in this area and it is much easier getting stuff into the game (maybe someone will even mod the game a bit ... nicer sprites maybe ?). BUT this stuff took way to long ...

Before I go to bed, I will add an inventory screen, to drop the items from the world into. Wish me luck