I don't think anyone was talking about tutorial design. Also, that's a bit of a strawman. Has anyone ever suggested - anywhere - that 'good design' will let a player guess the jump button?
last i've read it it was posted by auntiewhatever and it is one of the things that every retarded designer thinks.
is it a strawman? oop let me check my textbook on how to argu lol
Heh. Right there you're generalizing a bit too much - as multiple people have said already in this thread, and as you should really know, indies are not homogenous. There are plenty of "retarded designers" who hate a.a. even more than you do!
I'm not one of them, but your post did make me look at her article again with a more critical eye than before, leading to the conclusions I mentioned a few posts ago. (That her ideas of ultra-intuitive control/level-design are pretty limited in utility.) So: thanks!
(no one in the thread was talking about a.a.'s assertion, but maybe they should have been. It's interesting to discuss.)
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there is literally no difference <between tutorial by pop-up and by in-game hints> and "immersion"(a stupid word) is already broken the moment you have hands on the keyboard/gamepad
I had to think about this for a long while before I could respond.
Basically the problem is with the definition of 'immersion'. The obvious definition has something to do with "how much you believe you're in the game world". And that is, as you said, stupid! No one actually thinks they're wandering around Azeroth or Halo or wherever. You're always playing a game!
But there's a better definition of immersion that makes the idea of pop-ups "breaking immersion" actually make sense. Say that immersion means how involved you are with the game
systems - the game world in a strictly mechanical sense. How focused you are on playing the game - running the numbers, gauging the angles, shooting the bads, winning the battles. (As applicable to your example game of choice.) Then of course in-game tutorials and achievement pop-ups will detract from immersion - because they're not part of the system that you're just starting to learn, in the case of tutorials, or that you're well familiar with, in the case of achievments. They're intruders, and they're distracting!
This doesn't need to be something apocalyptic. In-game tutorials are not the end of the world - even poorly designed ones. But they can detract from immersion in the way that I defined.
This is also the way that cutscenes can detract from immersion. If you think of "immersion" as immersion in the plot or characters, then of course a cutscene wouldn't do anything to hurt that. But in terms of immersion in the
systems, cutscenes are absurdly jarring - taking away your ability to actually
play the game (walkaround cutscenes only very slightly less so) until the cutscene ends. It all makes sense!
(I am very excited by this.)
Achievements can be better or worse. In the wrong place, they can be seen as intruders. Suddenly an achievement pops up for "running 10000 meters" in a single-player FPS, say - what? I wasn't trying to do that! That's not an 'in-game' award! Why is that even a thing? The key thing is the idea that it's not something from within the game - it's an award in Xbox Live or Steam or PSN or whatever, not an actual part of the game. That's why achievements can break immersion,
for people who think of achievements in that way. (That last bit is key). In the right place, for the right people, they won't - well integrated, not jarring against the grain of the game. Multiplayer FPSes and score-chasing games are, I think, good fits...
I haven't really fully thought out how achievements fit in, but I'd be happy to discuss it more. The key thing is the idea of immersion as immersion in the systems, though.
(I forgot about them while I was writing, but
these posts are also relevant.)
metroid was brought up here a bunch.
and i bring up nintendo to mean their "style"(bad word) of "game design"(another bad word) where they pretty much brainwashed everyone on a certain way to present a game, which is where the hate for modern games come from. o no!! cutscenes are bad! adjustable difficulty levels are bad! achievements are bad! literally anything super mario bros didnt have is bad design LOL
Heh. You're right, people were talking about Metroid (Prime). Probably the reason I wasn't thinking of it was because a developer I could actually name (Retro Studios), rather than the monolithic Nintendo... but that's an excuse, and I'm getting distracted.
Yeah, Metroid Prime does a bunch of the stuff people were talking about for enhancing immersion. There are cutscenes, but they're somewhat uncommon and generally minimal; plot and background comes from the scanner almost entirely...
I was going to say that HL2 did it first, but apparently it didn't? (MP1 came out in 2002? How time flies.)
Anyway.
I think the primary inspiration for minimalistic storytelling comes from elsewhere. Half-Life did the whole "no-cutscenes" thing first and more vigorously; Half-Life 2 is much more often cited as an inspiration (for this sort of game design generally) than Metroid Prime... the logs are probably Metroid Prime's thing, in terms of inspiring developers (yes, yes, of course there was another game that did it first, no one cares - that wasn't directed at you, eva), but that's about the limit.
There is a cult of nintendo (basically a.a.?), but I don't think it's that widespread. Adjustable difficulty levels are fantastic. There are arguments against them - the usual problem is that you don't know what difficulty level is right for you
until you start playing, after you've chosen your difficulty, and difficulty spikes are an issue - but they're still better than the alternative. (
No difficulty options.) In-game tutorials are great - pop-ups aren't ideal, but give me them over "controls only in the manual" any day. And cut-scenes...
I'll talk about them below, eh?
i'll tell you the pinacle of no-cutscene storytelling:
(an excerpt from half life)
some dude: dr freeman welcome to city 17
*ignore and jump on nearest crate*
i was wanting to see More reliance on cutscenes after i finished playing alan wake
Heh.
There's two things you could be describing with that. The first is an actual problem. It's a walkabout cutscene (I think I used a very slightly different word for it earlier in this post?), which is just a cutscene under a very thin disguise. You can still walk around, and maybe just turn your head, or whatever - but you're trapped in a small area until whoever stops talking, and you
can't progress until then.
Actually, it's not just a cutscene - it's worse. It's an
unskippable cutscene. (How can you add a skip button for a cutscene that the designers don't admit exists?)
So yeah, if you're immersed in the scene, then you'll listen to / watch the people talking, you're involved, everything's great. Same as a normal cutscene. But if you're
not, then you're going to basically screw with the game's attempted narrative by "jumping on crates" and doing silly things while people talk, because it's a cutscene that you can't skip, and you have nothing better to do.
That's dumb. I agree. They were a cool novelty when HL1 came out, but by now they're really showing their age. (They tend to suffer particularly when you're replaying a game.)
The second thing you could be describing is one of the bits with
optional story - people talking to you ("welcome to city 17"), pretty analogous to the scannable stuff in Metroid Prime, the audiologs in System/Bioshock, etc. (Well, a bit more obtrusive, but basically similar.) It's optional plot, the sort of thing you have to seek out (by standing around until speeches finish in HL2, by hunting down scannable stuff in MP or audiologs in *shock... there is a progression here in terms of play quality! (hint: the one that involves less standing around is better)). It can be 'ruined' - by talking to someone and then doing silly things in HL2, by... not sure how you can mess around with the MP or *shock story, but you can easily ignore it, of course.
I'm not sure what the problem with this is. It's tidbits of delicious plot/history for people who care about it, and for people who don't, it might as well not exist. By piecing together information from Bioshock's logs, for instance, you can learn much more about Rapture's history than you will from the cutscenes... That seems pretty ideal to me.
Audiologs and so forth are hardly the end of cutscene-free storytelling - game environments generally, and L4D's in particular, are an even less obtrusive way of telling stories without getting in the way of players who don't care. L4D manages to pull it off in a purely multiplayer game! How crazy is that?
If I was going to tell you what I thought was the pinnacle of no-cutscenes storytelling, and point you to an example of what it can do for games - honestly, right now, I wouldn't point you to Passage or Metroid Prime or any nonsense like that. I'd point you to L4D.
the point i was making is, that's as far as you go. it wont Ever get any more intersting than that with storytelling by interaction(im saying its a bad idea). tell me when it does though.
Burden of proof is pretty much on me, and I don't have much!
What I will do is move the goalposts a little, if you don't mind. I'm not sure if the pursuit of "pure gameplay" is that interesting - as you said earlier, games are a multimedia... medium, and we should exploit everything we have access to in the interests of making the best game. (And the best story, etc.) What I think is a more interesting question is making a game where the gameplay actually meshes with both plot and theme. Uncharted (2?) was an example I saw the other day - before you nobly spare the villain's life (spoiler alert, I guess!) at the end of the game, you kill hundreds upon hundreds of mooks without a second thought. What sort of hero are you, anyway? In Mass Effect (2), a game I personally loved, you're supposed to be saving the galaxy from an urgent threat, but you spend your time running around doing side-quests for 20-30+ in-game hours before you actually deign to deal with the main plot. What's going on
there?A game where the mechanics actually mesh with the plot and theme, a
complex plot ("space invaders" works pretty well, but that ain't much of an achievement) - now that'd be something!
I'm tempted to put forward "The Void" here, but (1) hardly anyone's played it, so it's hard to have a discussion unless I summarize it, and (2) I still haven't beaten it (25-ish hours in?), so I'm not sure I'm qualified!
But there is an interesting point here, and perhaps someone who feels less under-the-weather than I do right now can help continue it for me.
maybe because all <audiologs/scan visor stuff> talks about ever is "someone died here", with the exception of odst where it was actually good
this isn't trueat allwhy would you even say thatalso i dont get why anyone would call this an "interaction" or "doing", its literally a scroll of text on your screen.
dragonmaw can / probably has answer(ed) this one
I seriously cannot give a toss about "interaction / showing / telling" one way or another
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I hope you've enjoyed reading this wall of text! I know I sure did.
tl;dr I'm tired and my eyes hurt and I should just go to bed early