[Accessibility:]

How to make a multiplayer game fun for people of different skill levels?
Hello

After debating on the FIGHTING GAME thread and reading this thread:
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=9408.0
I have tried to come with a concept that would be a canonical Nintendo like game, assuming the game would be on WII.

• Accessibility: these game simplify the control and how to get in the game.
  
• Preserve depth of the core mechanics: Those game remove the fat down to what matter.
• Expension of core while keeping accessibility: drifting and snaking as exemple, in mariokart expend, the take a turn sharply.
• Hazard: environmental hazard play a big role.
• fair randomness: Random is never really random, and even smash bros choose items to spawn according to play styles and performance. As randomness act on predefine rule, it's easy to anticipate.
• Pushing risk: Taking the lead is taking risk, risky maneuver is usually meet with satisfying pay off. Randomness as it follow rules encourage pushing risk (gambling appeal).
• rubber band: the game has in built rules to keep everyone on toes, it use fair randomness as  part to achieving this.
• skill counter: Whatever bad happen to you there is always a way to counter it or to minimize its effect. Even the awful wii blue shell can be deflect with a banana or a musroom in the correct time frame/positioning. It helps mitigate randomness
• Favor adaptation skills over brute force: Dark room isolation training" still count but what make the difference is the capacity to assess situation and take advantage of it.
• Combinatorial explosion: situation, core mechanics, basic movement, items, randomness, hazard, all combine with themselves and together to create an infinite set of situation. There is always something to discover or to create. Single mechanics can spawn entire strategy books (see "nade" for snake in SSBB). Eveything interacts with everything.
• Gameplay realism: Reality is bend towards fun, using nintendo character just emphasis that.

Nintendo would do something BOLD move here. The problem with FPS is essentially that moving is hard for beginner, Moving and aiming is even worst. As the dichotomy between moving and aiming is important for tactical play (like the multiplayer mode of MODERN WARFARE show) the two would be actually separate!

Movement mode:
Basic movement would be like classic 3D zelda move, the player could dash but not jump, instead interaction with the environment would be contextual. Just like in zelda, Jump would be only available on edge at run or dash speed, climbing small height would be accessible by pushing the wall and using contextual key. The camera would focus on immediate surrounding and less on far sight. This would be handle with the NUNCHUCK STICK.
Action like picking/tossing objects/characters, opening doors, climbing, pushing/pulling big object, any interaction is handle by the contextual button, let say A on the wiimote.
Dashing (smashing the stick) + A would result dodge move.
The C button recenter the camera behind the character.
The B button is to use picked items. You can only have one item at a time.
Holding A will open a radial menu around the character that let the player aim to select an option.
Waggle of the wiimote result in a melee attack, with dashing the character smash everything in front of him.
Waggle with the nunchuk result in a "shine", a very quick shield that deflect projectile or guard melee attack. Think barrel roll or fox shine in smash bros. But it also stop the character for a moment. Sucessfully deflecting shot can result him to get back to his source.

Aim mode:
You enter aiming mode by pressing the aiming button and the character draw his weapon. It set the camera close behind the character head (like RE4 or crossbow training) and make the character crouch and strafe resulting in slower move. In aiming move the character also cannot go down cliff or interact with environment. AIMING would be VERY different than in typical FPS it would be more focus on direct aiming a point of the screen (Cross bow training, RE4 WII) and slow camera turning.
The A button allow direct control of the camera like in typical FPS but does not allow firing. Useful For quick adjustment.
The B button is to use to fire the weapon. You can charge it by holding B, it will widen the target reticule and lock an opponent (like in starfox 64) but the camera would not follow it, and if the locked character get outside of view, lock is loss.
The C button block the camera and allow to zoom according the weapon held. You can use the angle of the nunchuk to lean.
Waggle wiimote reload some weapon.
Waggle NUNCHUK result in using ballistic type weapon like grenade. It takes the angle from the wiimote when toss.

Most of these element favor intuitive control mode while giving increasing finesse on control. Every advance option come with a cost and help balance the game. Actually i have take inpiration in splinter cell pandora multiplayer mode, except here we can switch between spy and mercenary mode on a push of a button. A lot of control is also directly take from older nintendo game convention (zelda and starfox as exemple) to keep continuity with the nintendoverse and build on fan expectation.

The core of FPS is simple, moving to dodge hit, aim and fire target. Recent game already have trim lot of fat of early shooter, no more medic, weapon drop or huge weapon inventory to tighten the pace and keep focus the game on his core: killing!. Item in FPS ask to know the map and create choke point that beginner would not known and keep knowledgeable player having a huge hand over them. Modern warfare remove that by letting the player choose their weapon at the start and loot amno on dead body, creating dynamic placement of items, Like halo a limited amount of weapon can be held the same time, player have to choose within weapon that fall from dead body and exchange their weapon with. By always having weapon to loot it create opportunities. We should keep the one weapon at a time model.

Aiming and firing could be expand and twist in new sort. Think the flower of mario, or old shooter spread weapon, you may end with weapon having multiple non centered reticule instead of one.

Like mario kart. Environment also react to player interaction, for example freeing a CHOMP by meleeing his chain. Bottomless pit are also there, but you can only fall if someone toss/push you there. Bumper of all sort exist, and water can drag you around.

There would be Surprise crate like in mariokart that give random item, when break with melee move, according to your play statistic to rubberband and balance player. But crate can be used like a projectile instead like in smash bros, different crate could have different property or can explode. Crate randomly appear at some spawn point in the air and fall slowly on the ground with a parachute. Firing the parachute make the crate fall faster and hit player.

When a player die, it release coins, by picking coins you upgrade the power of your weapon. the more coin you get, the more powerful you are but you glow much more and the more coin you release when you died. It push player toward closer battle and attract everybody to the most powerful player.

When a player respawn he have limited amount of invincibility but cannot shot until it end.

What do you guy think?

It had ass items

im sorry i cant pay attention to anything in your post anymore

Sorry fixed! 

[the big innovation]

And I'll just tiptoe around the landmines and say that I outright think Smash Bros is and should be the future of the genre; It advances lightyears in accessibility and does a surprisingly high number of things right ahead of the curve; the damage/knockback system is one of many things focused heavily on reducing the frustration common with existing gameplay models.

Not that existing franchises should switch to a Smash model, just that I think we need to see more games exploring this type of play.

Smash-style "party fighting" games get no love from the fighting game community because they are smash-style, and they get no love from the Smash Bros community because they aren't Smash Bros.  They tend to bomb.  I'd be interested to know how many hard core Smash players have played (or even heard of) games like Small Arms or the TMNT Smash game that just came out.

I thinks It's more about the phylosophie than the style...
However Smash just made BROAD step were the genre were making small step...

Regarding traditional fighting genre:
Dead or alive have explored interaction with environment
Dead or alive, like Virtua fighter only need 3 buttons+directions (like smash bros)
Mortal kombat "super move" was dead simple to do, no "hadoken", Virtua fighter also and many 3D fighter
Many game have "ring out" it is not that specific
Guilty gear have pretty BIG jump
Etc...

Smash bring all that and many fighting game convention, simplify things through better consistency across characters WHILE opening door for huge variation of styles. It had items and 4 player mode from lesser fighting game (and classical nintendo multiplayer convention), which is less important.

But the big innovation smash bros bring actually is the knockback+DI, you are still active while in hitstun, all previous game game you enter in "watch cinematic combo pull on you" mode. This is something, as a concept, i would see more in fighting game. The only equivalent i can find is the poor useless combo breaker in Killer instinct.

If there is something that need an improvement and exploration from a "serious take sense" is items. It's fine like it is in smash bros, but you need to actually spend time finding the correct balance in order to sort a "serious deck" of item. A game that would focus solely on cleaner setting for items would be interesting. Mario kart is tighter from that sense with item clearly place and organize in 3 category (offense, middle, defense) according to the lead.

[Never thrust your gut but follow it]

Never thrust your gut but follow it  

My first game (local to my school) success  was not mean to be ...

I was experimenting programming on CASIO, most game that have 2P mode was turn base, the challenge was a design one: How to make a realtime 2P game. The constrain is that the method to look at key cannot read 2 key at the same time, if 2 key was pressed it return none. I create a TRON bicycle game adaptation. Each player would have only two key to press (turn right or left) and the mechanics naturally discourage long key press else you would collide with yourself. The other problem is that, due to the nature of coding, if players were presented with the same pixel, the first player would always win because his condition is check first. I decide to skip Priorities and it result on a "bug", if players was in that condition there would cross their line, or even fuse if one or both turn in the same direction, and because turn are only 90° turn it would repeat at each intersection because of monte carlo distance, unless one player break the rhythm with an extra turn. The game was slow and the command not that responsive. IT BECAME INSTANT HIT!

Why? well the slowness of the game induce tension because you should not miss the "tick" when control where available. Emergent strategy start to appear, advance level player start to evaluate monte carlo distance to cross the others line unharm, metagame became a part of the game as player would try to nullify the other player key press by pressing at the same time and player would also feint their press to induce a turn to metaplayer, it became a mind game. Because the game was symmetric a lot of risk has to be done in order to break that symmetry and take the adventage, pattern of play start to appear are were charted, people would amass around player match and good play would be save on millimetric paper for posterity... Amazing!

The lessons was playtest always trumps feeling and thinking, sometimes let an accident go and see what happen! Don't try to hard to make a game fun until someone actually play it!

When there is a disaster the politics behind the help is irrelevant as long there is enough help...  It will be sad if it was forbidden that "egoist giver" could not help. Wether it's to buy a good image or real empathy, just help!

GALACTIC look good but play slow even on low... and QWERTY? what about AZERTY lay out 

I think the main problem with modern art and conceptual art like this is the lack of craft. Craft isn't the same thing as Art, but it is the vocabulary of the artist, and to have poor or totally ambiguous craft is to speak gibberish. One can easily draw an interpretation of the balloon with piece of wood bit, it's not very difficult, but it's not much more than an interesting notion.

I don't think so, i think it's because most conceptual artist stop speaking to everyone and start speaking to themselves, it has became the norm to be an obscure elitist jerk that look down the mass and outsider. And it isn't the advent of modern or conceptual art that have lend this trend, it was the romanticism, their legacy just have spiral down when this have met new way to see art. THAT and the fact that art was always tied to authority (spiritual, religious, aristocratic or merchant). Not to mention the Promethean fall of art subject from sacred to profane and from transcendent to immanent.

At the beginning GOD was what sets the norm of art, everything was defined by its perceived laws, good or bad, and everybody defined themselves with or against this, it defined every aesthetic. Today (and it is fairly recent) artist have gained the power to define what's their norm, their own aesthetic of what's good or bad, because their is no more an overall authority norm, there is nothing to agree anymore. ART debate therefore will be no end because without norm, there is nothing to set what's good or bad for everyone. It's call the luciferian or the babel age of art. Some say the death of art like the postmodernist if i recall correctly.

In short, history and tradition of art have set expectation to art that art does not belong to.

[Bullet hell fighting game]

Also, how does tripping make things easier for a "weaker" player? If they really are worse, and they *just* managed to gain the initiative then oops, lost it.. and the better player can execute their combos/kills better then I'd say randomly being vulnerable favors the stronger player.

Oops you post while i was making mine:

Fair point!

From my experience (not so hi level actually) between Brawl and melee, it is the good player that overuse dash to press advantage, I'm a fox player and my life is dashing in melee. Other player just move around using basic skill. In brawl it's juts a matter of pressing risk, generally safe, to punish even more a player.


But you must know that in melee we had a very different play styles than what you can seen on internet. We had embrace the difference of the game pretty strongly.

When we start melee we play it like a regular fighting game, and it was too slow too simple, we upped the game with 4 player sudden death, only frequent pokeball, pokestadium and Time limit. It was a sort of Bullet hell fighting game, reading the scene, positioning and adaptation was pretty crucial, strategy was about cornering someone into mistake, items was pretty important as a mind game and being able to grab an item someone toss to you was more important than guarding or dodging because it create a "turn the table" situation. We could survive in such environment fairly long and we play melee like that 4 years straight.

With Brawl we would play more normal stock game without item.

[We need depth, measure and balance fun.]

And I'll just tiptoe around the landmines and say that I outright think Smash Bros is and should be the future of the genre; It advances lightyears in accessibility and does a surprisingly high number of things right ahead of the curve; the damage/knockback system is one of many things focused heavily on reducing the frustration common with existing gameplay models.

Not that existing franchises should switch to a Smash model, just that I think we need to see more games exploring this type of play.

 

I'm done with smash, but i think we need a middle point without one predating too much the other style. Tatsunoko seems a step in that direction but too much flamboyant and look dumb down. We need depth, measure and balance fun.

By the way I think this thread is great, everybody have argue there feeling and their rational to death, i'm glad smash detractor keep coming back, each time we learn something more about the "miss" of every styles. I don't think i was necessarily right is just i have to push one side of the coin until someone break it. Thank you guy  

A) Street Fighter 4 has the most overpowered comeback mechanisms in fighting game history. In fact, the fact that there's so much anti-slippery slope causes the 'glacial' pace you complain about.
B) Sagat is the worst top tier character in a fighting game to date.
C) I don't know what you mean by "button whore", but like I said, complex motions actually have a meaningful impact on gameplay whether you choose to admit it or not.
D) Ultras are the very thing that make bad players feel more comfortable with losing, if you have a powerful move such as an ultra, again, anti-slippery slope.

Please don't post contradictory ideas.

Slippery Slope >> smash BROS (even if tripping is not the best idea to do it) prevent too much pressure toward weak player
SF4 >> Epitome of stupid traditional fighter convention "punishing comeback"

No contradiction >> Contrast between just annoying but design sounded VS completely stupid design wise

[he does not say that, he say that he like when a weak player have a chance to win against a good player, that's why he put tripping.]

Show your source because he does not say that, he say that he like when a weak player have a chance to win against a good player, that's why he put tripping...

This is a design that make sense, you need the weaker feel they can do something, even if the more skilled end up winning, so you don't feel left on the side, that's an option that put more challenge on the skill and calculation of risk, will you press your risk in favor of one advantage? It let the weaker player less pressurize. But it work for casual player, on hilevel this design become irrelevant as player calculate their cost more accurately... This design augment the range of player that can play with different skill together as it limit SLIPPERY SLOPE which is now view as universally bad design.

Every competitive game have their rules and taboo, you can read about the drama all other the net!

Regarding execution, positioning and timing are also skills of execution, to "sweep spot" is more meaningful for me than any 2xQCB+3P, but now we are arguing style because on hilevel control execution is a given. It only work for casual play and it actually create a clear divide between strategist vs button whore... AS ex, in SF4 i play cammy and pixie the other player, generally my friend take akuma and it is his game (PS3 and i don't reconfigure button), I don't train because i don't have the game, only 2player match to find out to play. The fact is that i generally dominate, even with Akuma advantage with fireball. But when he is nearly dead and i'm nearly half full, he just ultra into me. The problem is that the only strategy he has to learn is to place the ultra while i must constantly adapt the low number of option i have (lot of feint actually). And since the game favor Ultra (you can combo them ) there is little i can do. As soon as i reach mid bar it became a turtle game. Don't let me start with God awful Sagat...

If game try to be art with meaning, it's pretentious
If gamer try to find meaning in game, it's bullshit
 
Duchamp quit art for game on his late, he said game are greater than art
 
Sure he didn't know video games
 
Nah, i quit!

T h e   s p a c e   b e t w e e n

A space opera shooter about passion with fast pace actions
« A friend of mine once tell me that the space between two world is the same space between two word. Now i'm fighting in my ship, my ennemies have attacked me because i was just there, in that space between our worlds and our words. They may never know i'm here for her because of that space between she and me. I can't tell them because of that space between them and me. That space between us... This story is all about the space between.»

● Features:

– 12 levels of space fighting
– 10 ennemies
– varied environnement
– Romantic story

● Goal of the game
The game is about crossing the space between you and 'her', flying with your ship and firing at ennemies. You must survive the space fight until the end of the journey.

● Space spice
Accelerate, brake, dodge, target and fire, but stay alive because ennemies won't give you a chance.

Holy shit.

STOP spoiling

We all know ART debate is full of chewbaka defense, i see divergence, we cannot reconcile anyone

[LOGICAL NONSENSE]

LOGICAL NONSENSE
Over the top self conscious campy style whatever game genre with uber convoluted storyline full of happy one liner and pretentious monologue that leave you completely dizzy by the ramification it impose on useless metaphysics and reflexive melodrama... Think a happy evangelion meet bayonneta

Sounds? what about the look  ? It will not age!

To be brutally honest about all this, I really don't think I'm educated/experienced enough in either architecture or games to be writing this blog [...]

There are much less knowledgeable people wrinting about topics. Your blog is a interesting read - I don't care if you finished a game yet or not. You observer things, you think about your observations and you share your thoughts. That is alright, and it's on the reader to decide if this is useful for them or not.

Haajo is right + if you wait to be good to do something you will never get good at it, just do it, make mistake, improve, learn ... So keep your blog update as often as possible!

That's how we get experience, do be too modest the more quickly you brag the more quickly someone intelligent will prove you wrong AND you will learn and that's the point  Ok this is subject to your personality, but some people are very passionate about what they do, feel, believe without thinking much about themselves.

DO!
LEARN!
IMPROVE!

Note to myself...
Pay attention, when possible, to radiata stories
 

Stylish AWESOMENESS