Interesting channel. I feel like I'm learning a bit from the critiques you're giving for these games. I think I'll contact you whenever I have a demo to show.

Haha! It's funny because that's exactly what I'm doing right now.

But my main excuse for doing it is that I can figure out which parts I want to change. But also it helps to find what I think I did well in a particular piece that I would want to use in others.

This isn't related to the "friend turning evil" thing, but Pokemon actually most certainly does have a villain that is very despicable. In Black and White, Ghetsis manipulates the sympathetic villain for his own ends. So when you finally get to fight him, it feels rewarding.

[combination]

Looks like I was misunderstood... What I was saying is that a story can come from a combination of characters, setting, and chronology (which would be plot and backstory). Or, if I wasn't actually misunderstood, there are very simple things that can possibly be considered stories.

I'm not entirely sure if I can answer the second part. I don't play enough games as an aspiring developer... Might I ask if you could elaborate on those examples? What makes Phoenix Wright inconsistent, and what keeps Professor Layton from being immersive? And do you really think that what you're saying generally applies to games with stories?

Okay. I know for sure that I'm biased, but... For anyone saying that games absolutely should not have stories, do you even understand how a story works?

For one thing, a simple setting can potentially be a story in itself, at least if it has characters and some sort of chronology. I think what I'm referring to would be called 'minimalist' storytelling.

Also, if the story causes the gameplay to be too inconsistent, that would most likely be a problem with the quality of the story itself rather than the attempt to combine storytelling and game design.

Story isn't necessary, and it can cause a game to be worse, or it could end up making the game better. It's all up to the storyteller. The potential audience consists of people with different tastes, so who can say that games can't have stories if there will be so many people who would like those games anyway?

I never said it was, but without "passion and dreaming" how enthusiastic would you be about investing the time, developing the patience for the practice, and learning the skill? That was my point. If you are not really into what you are doing despite any discipline and skill you're going to have a hard time keeping your mind focused on it.

"Passion" is the engine that gets the vehicle started and keeps it going, learning, patience, and skill are the wheels that allows it to move, and an end goal gives you a destination to drive towards. They're all essential, as far as I am concerned.

Well, passion can get a person started, but it doesn't have to always be there. I would think that, if a passion is real, it will return even after it's lost. If you had to be passionate all the time, there would be too many people giving up far too soon.

So now you want me to change my opinion on this? Yes, it always automatically lessens the experience. And this is not about music taste, it is about music usage.

Alright, hold on. What I meant when I said that (I assumed it was clear) is that you shouldn't present your own opinions as facts, which you do seem to be doing. I never said you should change your opinion. If you can make a great game this way, go ahead and try. Whether or not people like this particular design idea of yours, it could still be a good game.

Well yes if frustration and disappointment are emotions designers seek for. Even now, when I turn music off, games provoke great deal of emotion and great atmosphere.

Again, background music isn't automatically frustrating or disappointing. That's why so many games still use it.

Yes, music is at its best when it provokes emotion. But it should be in context of music itself, not something else. Games are best when they provoke emotion through plausible events in the actual game world. BGM is not plausible event in game world. It is something that has been pasted on and thats it. It also doesn't make justice for the music either. It doesn't matter if the music is good or bad, if it should not be there in the first place.

So, what happens if visual art is taken away from a game? Then it would become a text adventure or one of those old roguelikes, right? An interesting style of gaming, perhaps, but most people would probably prefer to have visual art. Games have existed without complex visual art, but so many have that kind of art anyway. Music isn't too much different. Maybe not quite as necessary, though saying that is a bit of an insult to musicians (including myself). But the fact is that games are made up of many things. What games require are programming and design. On the other hand, they are enhanced and generally preferred with visual art and music (and sometimes story). To join different skills together in one medium isn't really showing any sort of weakness in the game's design. It's a utilization of everything at your disposal, right?

Did you read the whole thread? I articulated it somewhat well a page or two back. If you read that, you should at least be able to understand where our argument is coming from.

I may have skimmed quite a bit...
I did go back just now to read your post, though. I'm not sure I can really argue much, though the example you gave seems sort of like a special case. If the music does seem to change your emotions too abruptly, I guess it isn't so good for feeling immersed. I did say something somewhat similar before.

But that certainly doesn't prove that all background music should be purged to make sure the game is immersive enough. As has been said, the music enhances the emotional aspect of the game.

You know, I was going to say something about how I don't want a game to have parts without music, but I think that's not quite it. Looking at Shadow of the Colossus, if my memory is correct, there's no music playing if you're traveling through the overworld. But this is a game where you play as the only living human in the area. Where exactly could music come from while you're fighting the bosses? That's the kind of situation that you could probably say absolutely does need music, since the tension heightens at that point. And the boss battles do have great music. And the music doesn't change too abruptly if I'm not mistaken. If you fall to the ground from a colossus, you'll stop feeling so majestic, and the music that was playing while you were climbing the colossus fades into something darker or less energetic.

In other words, background music doesn't automatically make a game less serious or immersive. And I would appreciate if the original poster wouldn't assume that it's the worst possible thing for the immersion in a game just because he personally dislikes it in some cases.

I love music because it is abstract and provokes wide range of emotions much better than any other form of art.

But from serious gaming I seek for true immersion, and music usage is one big flaw that constantly arises in these games. Yes immersion gets killed also by bad AI design, glitches, bad story, illogic functions and so on. But compared to background music, even those are quite small problems.
In these games BG-music just doesn't work, ever.

I'm not sure how this can make sense...

Also, it seems like you're sort of trying to convert everyone to your opinions. Almost no one seems to agree, but it feels as if you're presenting your idea as a fact. I don't really want to be hostile about this, but it's kind of pretentious to say background music shouldn't be included just for the sake of realism. It's more like a sacrifice rather than an improvement.

And about not wanting music to control your emotions... Isn't that what it's for? You said it yourself, right? Maybe it's not so good if you can tell they're trying to make you feel a certain way, while you either don't feel that way or dislike the particular music being used. But if it genuinely invokes the intended emotion, then what exactly is the problem with it?

Does Moneybags from Spyro count? I don't think he could be called a villain, and he's certainly not the main antagonist or a threat, but he could be called an antagonist since he constantly finds ways to collect gems from you. And in the end of the third game, it was pretty awesome to find out that I could chase him down and take back all the gems he took from me.

So, I guess if an antagonist continually takes something from you that you earned and need, it really would make a player want to beat them.

i think it's easier to make an antagonist "annoying" than to make the player dislike the antagonist for his evil deeds, because typically we don't care about what who dies since we know it's just a videogame. example: i didn't hate sephiroth for killing aeris at all, i was happy to get rid of her

Tying what I've said with this, I honestly haven't even taken the time to finish Final Fantasy 7 myself, but I know my brother thought it sucked not to have Aeris anymore. She is really useful for healing, after all. (Plus she's meant to be liked, being a character that the creators actually thought through. Story in games shouldn't be ignored.)

Personally, I think I would be in the group of people who are just unable to make a game.

I don't really have natural talent in spriting, so I've always gone slowly with it after I've finished procrastinating. Though I may be over that problem once I try again...

When I run into a problem with coding, I look back, and I often can't seem to find any sort of mistake. When I do find something, it looks like an extremely small mistake. When I change it, things usually either stay the same or get worse. Rarely, the problem will be fixed, sometimes creating new problems. And I'm too prideful to look for tutorials or ask for help, at least before I finish my first game. If I lose my motivation, this is the reason.

But when I do lose motivation, I usually take the time to look at the things that inspire me. I play different games, watch anime, read manga, and it can pretty easily bring my motivation back. And, recently, I am feeling pretty motivated, though I've hardly touched my projects in a while.

I guess this isn't exactly a helpful post, and it seems to be filled with self-pity, though I just feel like the loss of motivation is the worst reason not to finish a game, despite being such a common problem.

You also forgot me... It's not really a surprise... And while I am actually quite arrogant, I'm pretty sure almost no one will vote for me anyway...

Awesome.
I really like how more and more people are starting to use diverse assets.

I was really excited when I saw the title of this topic. It looks like it's going to be a great game.

I added a zip file for convenience. But I really just did it so I'd have an excuse to bring this topic back up...

The final song has been uploaded. It's an epic composition featuring a violin, a cello, a music box, a flute, and timpani.

There are four new songs uploaded.

Thanks!
I use a program called NoteWorthy Composer and come up with everything on my brother's old glockenspiel.

Thanks, Andrew.
I now have ten compositions uploaded.

There are three new songs up.