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[Ixis]

FIrst draft, opinions?

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=djd7tw3_25d6wnbzd6

[Shoot-em-upper]

You have Juni, but not Knytt?  Blasphemy!

She's not a knytt anyway.  Unless you think that she looks like a rat-monkey.

Regarding your control scheme, I couldn't figure out what Z as opposed to z means.  Do you hold shift?

For the Zuma idol, you could have it spin around shooting random balls that you'd have to dodge.

[the_dannobot]

Looks good dude!  I've got some constructive criticism for ya:

-4 players is no problem. (if I'm programming this thing)

-What's the difference between the vs, coop, and tourny?  I'm guessing vs is free-for-all, coop is like a team vs, and tourny is single player arcade mode.

-I don't think cinematic attacks are a good idea. It sounds like it would be really frustrating to switch from the fighting game into some other game altogether.  Plus it would be hard to program, because there would have to be a big separate code module for cinematic attacks.  (this is just my opinion though)

-"Smash Mode" isn't really descriptive enough.  I think there are like three different game modes in smash: knockout, point-race, and time attack. 

-There's no mention of how the selected game mode, number of players, or game type will affect which of each is available.

-Is this game going to have random item spawns like in smash bros?  If so, what are the behaviors of the items?

-3 buttons: How does the player jump?  How does the player drop through a platform?  There should be a fourth button, j = jump. If the player presses j or up on the controller, the character jumps.  If the player holds down and presses j, the character drops through the platform they are currently standing on.

-Nothing if mentioned about the air game.  Will there be double jumping or air dashing?  Can the player block/counter/throw while in the air?  Personally, I think it'd be cool if they could do all of those.  Lots of fighting games even have options like those available on a per character basis, which might be cool too.

-The attack system is pretty thin.  Only like 9 attack options per character isn't much at all. The tap/hold mechanic doesn't sound like much fun either.

-Doing hard-coded sets of combos like that doesn't really work.  I've tried it, and it ends up being really dull.  It's better if you plan it out like "move A can cancel into move B".   That way you can setup each character to have a different set of combos, rather than a few universal combos shared by all characters.  Plus if this is smash-style play where the character is knocked back further depending on how much damage they have, the later hits on the hard-coded combos won't hit.  Leaving the combo system a little bit looser is a lot more fun, because it's more satisfactory to the players when they manage a good one.

It looks like you've got a good start.  Hope my suggestions help!

[Ixis]

Thanks guys, since I'm not a coder it helps to know what's possible and impossible.

In the end I chose Juni over Knytt because she has a larger moveset, which would make designing combat for her easier. Knytt can pretty much jump and climb, which doesn't offer a lot gameplay-wise. Also, I believe according to WaDF, Knytt and Knytt stories Juni is a Knytt. She's from the original Knytt's village, and was in town when he was abducted.

I'll tweak the controls to swap out special for jump. I forgot about jumping down through pedestals.
I'll also remove the cinematic attacks, and maybe think of something else (unless anyone else can come up with a way to implement something like that.)
The co-op, tournament and free-for all rules do need clarification.
There are random item spawns, but I don't know what those are yet, or what they could do. I figured once we have the basics down we can add summons and items.
The number of attacks per character was made to be simple like in Smash bros. There aren't enough options to make a full robust attack/combo system, but it would be needlessly complex, especially if the game had 4 player combat.

[Wilson Saunders]

Looks good enough to me. I read earlier that Terry was planning on doing the coding with Allegro. I also code with allegro and would like to contribute. I don't know what Terry's over all engine will be like but I volunteer to work on some of the game modes if I can figure out how to work with him. I call dibs on Blood Paint, I have already made a particle based blood splatter generator.

One thing that was never mentioned in the design doc was level design. Are we going with multiple levels and inclines like Smash brothers? Or will this be flat and simple like Street Fighter?

[Wilson Saunders]

Also if those button and attack combo's are finalized a sprite sheet including all moves and atacks for one character would be usefull. We need to know what the character dimentions will be when designing hit boxes and the like.

This also brings up how many frames per each animation do you want to have? I am glad I am not the artist on this one since all those attack combos are probably going to be very sprite intensive.

[the_dannobot]

The number of attacks per character was made to be simple like in Smash bros. There aren't enough options to make a full robust attack/combo system, but it would be needlessly complex, especially if the game had 4 player combat.

With only two attack buttons (attack and special), you could have a lot more attack options and still keep the combat relatively simple.

z: attack 1
z+u: attack 2
z+d: attack 3
z+l: attack 4
z+r: attack 5
c: special attack 1
c+u: special attack 2
c+d: special attack 3
c+l: special attack 4
c+r: special attack 5
z+c: super special attack 1
z+c+u: super special attack 2
z+c+d: super special attack 3
z+c+l: super special attack 4
z+c+r: super special attack 5
z+x: grab 1
z+x+u: grab 2
z+x+d: grab 3
z+x+l: grab 4
z+x+r: grab 5
z (in air): air attack 1
z+u (in air): air attack 2
z+d (in air): air attack 3
z+l (in air): air attack 4
z+r (in air): air attack 5
c (in air): air special attack 1
c+u (in air): air special attack 2
c+d (in air): air special attack 3
c+l (in air): air special attack 4
c+r (in air): air special attack 5
z+c (in air): air super special attack 1
z+c+u (in air): air super special attack 2
z+c+d (in air): air super special attack 3
z+c+l (in air): air super special attack 4
z+c+r (in air): air super special attack 5
z+x (in air): air grab 1
z+x+u (in air): air grab 2
z+x+d (in air): air grab 3
z+x+l (in air): air grab 4
z+x+r (in air): air grab 5
z (during dash): dash attack
c (during dash): special dash attack
z+c (during dash): super special dash attack

//plus here's a list of possible movement commands
r, r: dash
x: block
x (in air): air block
x+r: forward dodge
x+l: backwards dodge
x+d: parry
x+u: counter
j: jump
u: jump
j (in air): double jump
u (in air): double jump
d, u: super jump
u+j: super jump
j+d: drop

[Wilson Saunders]

I am in favor of having a smaller set of attacks and actions. The more we put in the more will have to be coded and created. I would like to see a playable version one day in the near future.

[the_dannobot]

Yeah, that's a list of all the possible move combinations I could think of.  Most of them can be pruned.  Like, the air moves could be the same as the ground moves, only one grab per character, or no attack+special super attacks.

[Wilson Saunders]

Perhaps it is not a good idea to combin Z,X, or C in a single button combo. While this is easy on the keyboard, I expect this game to include game pad support for multiplayer. In this case We should not expect the user to be able to hit two or more buttons with their thumb. I favor the_dannobot sugestion of having the diection modify the attack.

z: attack 1
z+u: attack 2
z+d: attack 3

The left and right modifiers may get confusing when we have multiple characers on the screen and don't know which way we are pointing. Perhps block and a left/right direction grabs a character in that direction.

[Ixis]

The left and right modifiers may get confusing when we have multiple characers on the screen and don't know which way we are pointing. Perhps block and a left/right direction grabs a character in that direction.

It's not that, it's that it's shorter to type right and left instead of forwards and backwards.

[the_dannobot]

Yeah, it says in there about left and right being relative to a character facing right, so left=backwards and right=forwards.

Another problem I forgot about is that in a Smash style game, when the player presses the 'back' direction, the character turns around.  So if you have a move like "attack+back" and the player's timing is a little off, the character will turn around and do the attack in the wrong direction.  Just might be something to think about.

[the_dannobot]

The left and right modifiers may get confusing when we have multiple characers on the screen and don't know which way we are pointing.

Naw, keeping track of your own character and which direction is forward doesn't really confuse the player.  I was really afraid of this in Super Pillow Fighter, but when I was play testing it I found that even if there are four identical characters fighting on the screen it's still really easy to recognize which character is your own.

[Ixis]

Yeah, it says in there about left and right being relative to a character facing right, so left=backwards and right=forwards.

Another problem I forgot about is that in a Smash style game, when the player presses the 'back' direction, the character turns around.  So if you have a move like "attack+back" and the player's timing is a little off, the character will turn around and do the attack in the wrong direction.  Just might be something to think about.

SSB handles this by having a slight delay when turning around. Also you can increase the window of opportunity to be slightly longer when back is being pressed to make sure the system flags back and attack.

[fish]

im telling you man, gomez should always be batshit chainsaw crazy.
always.

[the_dannobot]

I read earlier that Terry was planning on doing the coding with Allegro. I also code with allegro and would like to contribute. I don't know what Terry's over all engine will be like but I volunteer to work on some of the game modes if I can figure out how to work with him.

I'm not sure who's doing the coding for this game.  I've got some smash-style fighting game engines laying around that are already complete, but I'm not sure if everyone especially likes the style of animation I use.  Like if it's decided that you guys want this game to be sprite-based, I don't really want to do a top-to-bottom overhaul of the engine to support it. 

I'll post a big explanation later of how my stuff works and what it would mean for the artists, and then you guys can decide what to do.

[Wilson Saunders]

I'm not sure who's doing the coding for this game.  I've got some smash-style fighting game engines laying around that are already complete, but I'm not sure if everyone especially likes the style of animation I use.  Like if it's decided that you guys want this game to be sprite-based, I don't really want to do a top-to-bottom overhaul of the engine to support it. 

I can't imagine it would be to hard to replace what ever graphics with those from the community. I was also going to offer my smash style engine but I wrote that for a speedhack and the code is ugly.

[Xion]

Yeah, it says in there about left and right being relative to a character facing right, so left=backwards and right=forwards.

Another problem I forgot about is that in a Smash style game, when the player presses the 'back' direction, the character turns around.  So if you have a move like "attack+back" and the player's timing is a little off, the character will turn around and do the attack in the wrong direction.  Just might be something to think about.

SSB handles this by having a slight delay when turning around. Also you can increase the window of opportunity to be slightly longer when back is being pressed to make sure the system flags back and attack.

It...it does? Not that I know of. If the character is facing right, and does a smash attack left, he'll turn around and perform the forward attack. The only backwards attack is while in midair, where the character cannot reverse facing.


I am opposed to backwards-attacks nonetheless. I'm still in favor of the moveset I proposed:

button 1 = attack
button 2 = jump
button 3 = block

block + attack = grab
block + jump   = evade
attack + jump  = powerful/special/ranged attack

attack = weak hit (3 types; crouched, standing, midair)
direction + attack (simultaneously) = strong hit (3 types: up, fwd, down)
direction + attack (while moving)   = dashing hit (3 types: up, fwd, down)

then there could also be character-specific fighter-type combos, such as
dwn->dwn+fwd->fwd + attack = missile
or
dwn->up + jump = high jump

So that's like a total of 10 attacks + grapple, evasion, and maybe 3 - 4 character-specific combos?
also,
by default characters have a bit of acceleration before reaching peak speed. This acceleration time could vary from character to character. This time could be circumvented by double-tapping the direction in which motion is desired, resulting in a quick dash beyond top speed followed by a deceleration to full run.
If a controller is being used this could all be analog, I suppose.

whited out 'cause it's probably not relevant so early.

[Shoot-em-upper]

Perhaps it is not a good idea to combin Z,X, or C in a single button combo. While this is easy on the keyboard, I expect this game to include game pad support for multiplayer. In this case We should not expect the user to be able to hit two or more buttons with their thumb. I favor the_dannobot sugestion of having the diection modify the attack.

Have you heard of shoulder buttons?  Besides, I like directional attacks.

[skaldicpoet9]

im telling you man, gomez should always be batshit chainsaw crazy.
always.

Yes, I definitely agree with this.