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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignSmash bros for fighting, mariokart for racer, what for fps?
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Author Topic: Smash bros for fighting, mariokart for racer, what for fps?  (Read 4610 times)
gimymblert
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« on: December 24, 2009, 09:32:23 AM »

When smash was out, it cause a lot of drama because it became an odd alternative to fighting game formula. While "street fighter", the genre defining game, quickly spawn successful imitator, smash bros has yet to be successfully clone or variate on, as the complexity of its design is hard to replicate in a new game, in a significant way, and still stand for itself.

Mario kart is pretty much the same, it had define the "kart" genre of racing game but remain unscathed in term of serious competition.

Not counting Pokemon for rpg...

FPS is itself a fairly simple genre (move, aim, shoot), and also it does has a steady evolution from wolfeinstein to modern warfare 2. What it would be?

Looking at similarity we can see an overall tendency, that can serve as a guideline:

  • Accessibility: these game simplify the control and how to get in the game.
  • Preserve depth of the core mechanics: Those game remove the fat down to what matter.
  • Expension of core while keeping accessibility: drifting and snaking as exemple, in mariokart expend, the take a turn sharply.
  • Hazard: environmental hazard play a big role.
  • fair randomness: Random is never really random, and even smash bros choose items to spawn according to play styles and performance. As randomness act on predefine rule, it's easy to anticipate.
  • Pushing risk: Taking the lead is taking risk, risky maneuver is usually meet with satisfying pay off. Randomness as it follow rules encourage pushing risk (gambling appeal).
  • rubber band: the game has in built rules to keep everyone on toes, it use fair randomness as  part to achieving this.
  • skill counter: Whatever bad happen to you there is always a way to counter it or to minimize its effect. Even the awful wii blue shell can be deflect with a banana or a musroom in the correct time frame/positioning. It helps mitigate randomness
  • Favor adaptation skills over brute force: Dark room isolation training" still count but what make the difference is the capacity to assess situation and take advantage of it.
  • Combinatorial explosion: situation, core mechanics, basic movement, items, randomness, hazard, all combine with themselves and together to create an infinite set of situation. There is always something to discover or to create. Single mechanics can spawn entire strategy books (see "nade" for snake in SSBB). Eveything interacts with everything.
  • Gameplay realism: Reality is bend towards fun, using nintendo character just emphasis that.

I wonder... what could be the alternative "nintendo take" on multiplayer FPS
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Bree
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« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2009, 10:06:17 AM »

I imagine something like Quake, with less blood and more chaotic power-ups.
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Tanner
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« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2009, 10:52:16 AM »

crash team racing was better than mario kart 64
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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2009, 11:14:59 AM »

Team Fortress 2. Right?
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BlueSweatshirt
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« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2009, 12:38:52 PM »

Team Fortress 2. Right?

Basically.
Take out the blood and replace characters with age-old Nintendo characters.

Done!  Wink
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just a guy
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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2009, 12:46:00 PM »

Heh guess it isn't Geist. Shrug
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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2009, 12:51:50 PM »

I imagine something like Quake, with less blood and more chaotic power-ups.

Warsow?

http://www.warsow.net/
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BlueSweatshirt
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« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2009, 01:23:58 PM »

That game looks epic.
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CosmicMaher
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« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2009, 05:47:33 PM »

I thought Shattered Horizons was a pretty large step in...a direction. A badass direction.
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falsion
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« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2009, 11:22:28 AM »

The problem is fighting games are pretty formulaic and can be generalized pretty easy. They consist of two players facing head to head fighting each other.

Smash Bros. came along and did away with that. Made it so you can jump all around the stage, have up to four people fighting at once, etc.

Racing games are in a similar boat. They basically used to be recreations of the actual sport of racing, consisting of either sim-like or some arcade like elements. Mario Kart of coarse came along and broke every convention of that genre as well.

The thing about first person shooters however, is that they're pretty much defined by the fact that they're first person shooters.

As long as you have a game that is in first person, and involves shooting. It's an FPS.

It doesn't matter if it's a unrealistic double jumping fragfest where you wield dual miniguns or a military simulation. Either one is still considered an FPS just due to the fact that it's first person, and involves shooting.

Even Deus Ex, a role playing game is widely considered to be an FPS because of the fact that.. well.. it's first person, and involves guns.
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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2009, 11:29:33 AM »

If it's Smash Bros. for fighting, it must be Bang Bros. for shooting, right?

...

 Well, hello there!
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falsion
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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2009, 11:30:21 AM »

If it's Smash Bros. for fighting, it must be Bang Bros. for shooting, right?

...

 Well, hello there!

http://instantrimshot.com/
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PANPOMMA
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« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2009, 11:33:39 AM »

If it's Smash Bros. for fighting, it must be Bang Bros. for shooting, right?

...

 Well, hello there!

http://instantrimshot.com/

Ahh thank yow. Gentleman
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BoxedLunch
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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2010, 12:02:09 PM »

SHROOM  Durr...?
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« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2010, 06:13:49 PM »

Second TF2 - it's exactly what you're looking for.
Pretty good game! I prefer much faster/"twitchy" mechanics - but teamwork / class tactics is where the game really shines (the point and click part is pretty easy overall; characters don't move super fast, high lack of instant-kills) - very Mario Kartish in that regard.
Is there a Tigsource clan for games btw?
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« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2010, 10:34:39 AM »



 

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« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2010, 05:35:11 PM »



 
That's cool.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2010, 03:49:28 PM »

Hello i'm back!

Yeah a lot of great thought here! That's true that there is many game that are close enough to what a nintendo Would do game  Smiley

OMG GARY WARE! a possible game mode very nintendo convention breaking Smiley

First let's consider evolution (not mean to be accurate just illustrative) and innovation as they relate to the topic and core gameplay, i have stress situation where turning the table were interesting:

1. First FPS favor skill, skill and skill. The gap between new and veteran were huge (quake as a big offender with rocket jump, edge boost, strafe run, etc...) there were no trade off in the mechanics as the win is move and aim as fast as possible. Positioning played little only at very hi skill level. Come back very difficult and skill gate as there is no rubber band. It's either own or be own. But some of them DID have interesting interactive level or level with hazard and push risk was handle via item placement.

2. Halo popularize shorter life bar that replenish after some times. It helps better game dynamics as positioning and fleeing became more strategic and permit come back. As a console game slow turn (even mitigate by a stick velocity base sensibiliy tuning) help to balance aiming and moving. I still find the replenish a bit too strong because there is no penalty for it. Halo did well also with a plague of FPS, camping sniper! Sniping have the usual slow firing rate but also leave a trails that reveal his position, still not enough in certain big place.But rubber band still miss and being a noob is really discouraging.

3. TF2 make great use of class that permit different play style, and changing class during a match helps keeping fresh dynamics. Class hide a layer of complexity by hiding a lot of memorizing and control complexity. But for our purpose this game is a cheater as cooperative only gameplay hide the problem of noobness by giving player friend that care.

4. Modern Warfare is closest to mario kart like FPS a little skew towards hardcore. It always balance aiming vs moving as it allow many "stance" that play with that balance. If you run you cannot shoot and are more difficult to target, if you walk your aim is sloppy, if you aim your movement is reduce making you an easy target, you can also crouch (same as aiming) or lay down (reduce movement, augment aim and more difficult to target). The beauty of that is the knife. Most weapon kill with multiple shot at any distance but knife kill instantly but at melee range. As a moving target is harder to aim even when it is close you need to adjust your aim for more precision bit it give more time to your target to get close, it became a game of split second decision with any solution a risky but nontheless viable option (flee away, aim and shoot, shoot without aim, knife back, dodge and fight back) all option can fails or tie and open a new round. Talk about adrenalin rush in a uncertain environment! That kind of mecanics make for intense close combat in game about "distance". Balancing close vs far and aim vs move is what make Modern warfare stand out! It also reward hardcore play with kill streak, balance death with perks for comeback and encourage newb with XP per kills. But newb and hardcore still not play the same game, somewhat newb Grind XP (knowing they will die in a face to face) while veteran grind Kills (honing their skills even more) as Kill streak unbalance the rubber band in a wrong way. It's play to die VS play to kill.

Some people remind me that nintendo DID FPS and they are effective genre convention breaker :

1. Metroid series:
(DS and echoes have multi) They had lock (a FPS fan drama), slow turn (FPS drama again) and morph form (FPS oddities). Mecanics cleverly trade off movement vs firing, with the morph ball (new movement opportunities, difficult to aim and not lockable), and the lock compansate for quick turn. but sadly i didn't play them multi Sad i don't know how they handle weapon and items within. It also feature (at least on home console) a very horizontal gameplay where vertical aiming is not easy nor necessary.

2. Golden eye 64 /perfect Dark 64:
It's not a direct nintendo game (nintendo have a strict internal policy about showing actual Gun) but a second party game. It was the first game to introduce reload, realistic weapon drop and "realistic damage". Like all console game "turning" became a trade off that balance aiming and moving, also you could not JUMP which was a big convention breaking. There was no health pack, that kind of realistic "health" becoming a huge pressure in the gameplay by making injury permanent, you could still wear armor BUT some shot still deplete health rather than armor (armor only stop shot on the chest area). Reload was the real deal, it made positioning and moving more strategical than any FPS before it, especially with the movement limitation the game suffer because of it console format. Shooting need to be strategic in order to not suffer the big reload punishment, exposing yourself to force the opponent to shoot at you was a viable push your risk mechanism. A lot of mind game was about balancing your number of shot VS the opponent to be able to chase him when he flee for cover for reload (or switching weapon which is equally slow). There was always an opportunity for come back and turning the table as soon the reload is complete, fleeing was always an option even with a good weapon, even with player of different skills. It was also the first game to popularize the stop for precise aim. Perfect dark make the john woo ballet even further with the Disarm mechanism. Notice that those game are the only FPS that make you start with NO weapon, keeping player pressure all time. While in Golden eye it was unbalance this is where the Disarm of perfect dark come into play. When you have no weapon you can disarm your opponent but you need to get close which is risky, but the pay off is to steal the weapon and turn the table, especially when the opponent is heavily equiped. The trick is that there is some physics involve, done correctly the weapon fly from your weapon hand and fall on you to be pick instantly, but to do that you need to be right in front of your opponent where you are an easy target. Disarming from the side is to toss the weapon on the opposite direction on the ground, opening a multiple decision mind game of equally viable option(switch weapon, wait to disarm again, rush to pick, fly away). And i did not mention that disarming, like melee attack, blur the vision of the victim even more with each hit. Perfect dark also have a range array of interesting and original weapon that support that type of mind game and turning the table.

3. Link Crossbow training:
I'm looking at the assault mode where you can move, while technically it is not an FPS with the over the shoulder view (and still not a Third person as we don't see the feet), we can argue it work the same, except we see the character rather than the hand holding the weapon. This is the kind of Convention cringe breaking that can set appart a community of gamer on a game Smiley (smash is still view as a mere platformer for some hardcore fighting fanboy).
BUT:
Quote
"To tell you the truth, I actually wanted to create Link’s Crossbow Training 2. I thought that we should do something more and better in the field of the first person shooter, based on our experience of the first game. For example, I was thinking that maybe we could intensify the multiplayer mode. The original game was really just a solo game but I thought that we could add a true multiplayer mode with multiple users playing together, from remote areas, over the Wi-Fi Connection. I thought that we could add a true multiplayer mode. The fact of the matter is that a lot of people inside Nintendo insisted that I should work on a new Legend Of Zelda title rather than working on more Crossbow Training." - Eiji Aonuma
I have stumble on this interview and it seems we were close to something like a mention in this post Smiley. The interesting things about convention, aside from the view, is the direct aiming thanks to the wiimote pointing. While the game still have the limitation of console FPS (horizontal gameplay because of the difficulty for vertical control), it may be hint a different kind of reactivity that will create gameplay never seen until now especially in john woo ballet or maybe object juggling).

Conclusion:

At a core it seems that FPS need two kind of gamplay, long range that balance aim vs move, close gameplay that open option for intense split second mind game with come back and turning the table. That leave opportunity to extand these situation with wacky option.

Accessibility seems like a problem as no game really implement rubber band to give noob a sense of achievement, even if the veteran outdo him. Console game mitigate complexity by focusing on horizontal aiming and making vertical aiming an non essential option but still viable. Also some gameplay weakness such as camping is still not adress in any game.
A nintendo game should not let the player rest to long and always have something that pull or push him towards interesting situation.

I will try to build an idea of that later Smiley
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gunmaggot
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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2010, 04:51:22 PM »

It seems weird that nobody has mentioned Unreal Tournament yet, so I will.  The weapon design is some of the most creative gameplay design in any game around - mechanically UT shames all of the games you listed combined.

http://planetunreal.gamespy.com/View.php?view=UT2004GameInfo.Detail&id=26&game=4

Also, Descent.

FPS is actually a much more varied genre than fighting games, and it diversified into multiplayer-focused and singleplayer focused pretty early on.
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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2010, 05:48:11 PM »

Yeah.. UT2k4.. one of my top 2 favorite shooters.
But it's definitely not easy to play, if thats what the poster was going for?
I mean to say, it's fucking fast and you can easily get much faster than someone else (I don't see that so much in Team Fortress)
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