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[GregWS]

EDIT: just wanted to edit this so that there wasn't just dead links in this thread.  I have a proper website now, gregws.ca, and it includes/will include revised versions of the more substantial pieces I wrote on the blog.

Hi guys, so I've started a design-oriented blog about architecture and video games, and the huge crossovers between them (that don't really get talked about much, for some strange reason).  

The first post of the blog is a really concise summary/argument for why video games are fundamentally a spatial medium.*  So if you find that interesting, then I think you'll likely get something out of the other stuff I post.  I'm aiming for 1-2 posts per week, which I think is reasonable given that most of them will have a bit of length to them.

Here's that first post: http://interstitialdesign.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/hello-world-2/

I'll also be slowly updating the blog with some of the art and design work that I've done over the past few years; that includes some of my WIP game stuff.

Well, I hope that you guys find this interesting, and that this perspective becomes another (of hopefully many!) that inform your design process.  

*Games that are 100% text based are really weird; it doesn't feel right calling them spatial, but they're the only type of game that doesn't have some spatial element to them.

EDIT: please feel free to suggest topics for me to cover; it makes my life a lot easier, and ideally it will make the blog more relevant, too.  

[dspencer]

this sounds really really cool! i'm looking forward to reading more.

[Captain_404]

I'll be watching where you go with this for sure!

The connection you make between games and architecture has always been interesting to me, and it's unfortunate that there's not a lot of discussion over the connections between the two. Knowing little to nothing about architecture I know I'd feel lost in such a discussion, so I'm looking forward to reading this

[Nessiah]

I've been looking for something like this a couple of days ago, it's like my prayers have been heard 

[Hajo]

(Unless you're talking about hypertext or visual novels... ))

These form a graph structure, and are implicitely spatial, too, just possible in a high-dimensional space. You can always make 2D or 3D projections of such graphs.

[GregWS]

Glad you guys are interested.  Because architecture is such a vast topic, I'd really like it if people would suggest some topics for me to cover; that way, either I'll know something about it and can dive right in, or it will be a chance for me to do a bit of research and learn about something I'm less familiar with, then post on it. 

Oh, and please leave comments on the blog; if anything's unclear in the entry, or it got you thinking about something, etc., please do post, as it can (and hopefully will!) lead to interesting discussions, and future topics that could be covered.

@atuun: I know what you mean about navigating text worlds (compass directions).  The reason I hesitate to call them spatial is that there's never any spaces depicted directly, just descriptions of them; pretty much identical to books.  There's also the fact that, theoretically, a piece of IF could be created that had absolutely no space whatsoever in it; maybe the whole thing is a conversation; that's not really true of games that have any non-textual feedback.  I definitely agree, though, that text adventure games are very much on the line, as they are designed around having different spaces that you explicitly go between; because of that they probably could be considered spatial, but it would still be a very unique kind of spatial. 

Using level design and negative space to subtly guide the player in the right direction

Definitely a good way to think about that! 

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

*Games that are 100% text based are really weird; it doesn't feel right calling them spatial, but they're the only type of game that doesn't have some spatial element to them.

there are other genres as well. dating sims, adaptions of card games like poker and gin rummy, rhythm games like parappa the rappa, and many others.

of course, you could say things like 'parappa dances around so it's spatical!' but the game really has no map at all and position isn't important to the gameplay in any way, so i wouldn't consider spatical location to be a contributing factor at all to parappa.

[george]

Glad you guys are interested.  Because architecture is such a vast topic, I'd really like it if people would suggest some topics for me to cover; that way, either I'll know something about it and can dive right in, or it will be a chance for me to do a bit of research and learn about something I'm less familiar with, then post on it. 

it'd be cool to see something comparing the idea of the vernacular and defined design styles in architecture and games.

[TeeGee]

The blog looks nice and the subject is interesting, but I have one question for you, Greg. I know you're an architecture student and design buff, but have you actually designed any games?

I'm genuinely curious, because you post a lot and often it seems like you're experienced in the field, but I don't recall any finished projects by you. Please don't take it as a personal attack or nothing, it's just something I wanted to ask since some time.

[GregWS]

*Games that are 100% text based are really weird; it doesn't feel right calling them spatial, but they're the only type of game that doesn't have some spatial element to them.

of course, you could say things like 'parappa dances around so it's spatical!' but the game really has no map at all and position isn't important to the gameplay in any way, so i wouldn't consider spatical location to be a contributing factor at all to parappa.

I really don't think the spatial interactions need to be forefront and a significant part of the gameplay for games to be spatial.  The simple fact of spatial interactions taking place within a game, whether they're interactive or not, is I think a solid foundation for calling them spatial.  Gameplay is just one of many elements that make up games, and I think it's important that we don't put it on some pedestal.

it'd be cool to see something comparing the idea of the vernacular and defined design styles in architecture and games.

Haha, awesome, I literally have a draft of a post almost identical to this on the go right now, so I guess I'll put my time into that then.  I want to do a good job though, and I think that topic requires some research, and will end up being a mini-essay, so expect it in a week or two then. 

The blog looks nice and the subject is interesting, but I have one question for you, Greg. I know you're an architecture student and design buff, but have you actually designed any games?

I'm genuinely curious, because you post a lot and often it seems like you're experienced in the field, but I don't recall any finished projects by you. Please don't take it as a personal attack or nothing, it's just something I wanted to ask since some time.

Yeah, I don't take it as a personal attack, it's a very much deserved question. 

And because you asked, I think I may as well give the honest run-down as to why I don't have any released games (holy crap this ended up having a lot of text):

OK, so I got into GM at the beginning of high school, and for pretty all of high school I started larger projects and never managed to finish them, though still improving my skills with GM/GML with each project.  Then it was my first year of University, which was a qualifying year to get into architecture school.  Basically, I needed very good grades, and the transition to university is always tough regardess; game making was on the back burner for pretty much that entire academic year.  Half way through it, though, was when I found out about TIGS and the indie scene (before that I'd been aware of elements of the GM scene, but no one really liked the GM scene/GMC).  Finding out about interesting indie games made me both commit entirely to making small games, and also to abandon anything I'd done before that point because it all felt so unsophisticated.

So that summer I did try and get back into the swing of things, but it was summer, and I work full time in the summers, and in Canada you have to enjoy nice weather when you get it; doesn't help that I'm "outdoorsy," either.  So I did bits and pieces, but mostly it was trying to make a good engine for the lo-fi ruin exploration platformer I wanted to make; by the end of the summer I'd gotten a long way into it, and had a far better engine than any of the ones I'd tried to make before, but it still had bugs.........and then I entered architecture school. 

That year had even less game making, but I did still come to TIGS fairly often because I was living in a different city, and the vast majority of my classmates didn't give a shit about video games, which really sucked because they were so different from the people I hang out with at home.  Anyway, last summer (full time job and nice weather still being applicable) I started what was supposed to be a month long project, but I just didn't have enough direction going into it, so after I finally got the flying mechanics to feel right I just didn't know where to take it; I also created a level-editor and level-file-reader in GM for the first time, because its system was inadequate.  ...and then it was back to arch school again.

Right now, after deciding that due to the new curriculum this year I had to switch architecture schools, I'm back at home, working full time until September.  I've got a half finished GAMMA entry that simply requires an overcast light polluted night so that I can get out there with my camera and get some assets (given how often those usually happen, I'm rather mad that we've gone like 2 weeks without a usable night!).  I sat down and made some big decisions with the bird game (the one I was working on over the summer) so I'm moving forward with it as well.  And I finally know enough about music theory now to prototype some of my long standing ideas for those kinds of games; I did a little of that over lunch one day this week, and agj reminded me about the Klik of the Month being on today, so I'm going to try and make a really minimal game for it based around that.

........................anyway, yeah, I do make games, and equally important I think a lot about making games, and have no lack of ideas sketched out.  I'm actually forcing myself to do almost none of that now and put my effort towards finishing things.  Though to my credit, I don't have any abandoned projects from after highschool, so I have kicked that habit entirely. 

[Terrorbuns]

Ooo this looks interesting. My dad is an architect so I've noticed a few elements between the two (but not in the large sense. I noticed it more in the literal sense, when there's buildings in video games and what not.) It'd be cool if you touched on that though. The design of buildings in games normally doesn't make much sense half the time :x

But yea, I'll be keeping my eye on this. I expect cool things! (And yea, level design plays a big part in game design. Level design should be memorable and makes the game more memorable!

...Now to actually read this thing and feel stupid because what I've said has probably already been covered and such 

[TeeGee]

Thanks for the reply .

The subject of your blog is very interesting and it shows lot of potential. However, I personally think you should focus on finishing a game first.
Theory is all fun and dandy, but it's rarely worth much compared to practice. Stating that: "I *think* that games relate to architecture in such and such way" is far less interesting compared to: "games relate to architecture in such and such way, of which I learned while making game X".
Everyone can talk good talk, but making it into something tangible is a different beast altogether. Creating a wonderful construct in your mind is easy. In reality, everything will be different and most likely worse. Application of your design principles can be hampered by tons of stuff - lack of resources or time, withering motivation, lack of experience or necessary technical abilities; or it might be just that your assumptions weren't that valid in the first place. You won't know without trying.

For me, it would be very interesting to read about application of architecture and overall design rules to video games, but only coming from an individual that actually does both. I want to know how it stands in a realistic situation with realistic limitations.

Pardon my blunt honesty here, but for me your reasons of not having a finished game sound a lot like excuses. I mean, it's not like you're the only person who studies, works and enjoys a good weather. Looking at your forum activity and blog, I think that you have enough free time that could be put to good use. Most game designers I know are able to work under completely crazy circumstances to fulfill their passion for creating games. If not, then I get suspicious .

This reminds me of a guy who recently applied for a junior designer's position at the company I work for. He was bright, educated, very passionate and have read every design book he could found. He also had lots of interesting thoughts on game design as a whole. He came out brilliantly in the interview and got hired.
From the very start, he acted like he really knows what's he's doing. Actually, he'd go as far as to tell people with years of experience that what they are doing is wrong, because book such and such says this and this. Only one problem - he never released a single game. Asked why, he made excuses about lack of time and unreliable teams. Was he a good designer in the end? I don't know. He was fired before even his trial period was over.
I think he had lots of potential, but he was just too good at theorizing. Years of contemplating games made him feel like he really knows his stuff, while in reality he didn't knew jack shit. Trying to complete any game on his own would immediatelly get him back into modesty, of course. But that would mean having to leave the comforting zone of straight rules and great sounding theories.

I don't really think you're like him, but I see some resemblances (as far as one can tell from internet forums). I think it would be really great if you would apply what you know of architecture to game design, and then get back to tell us about it. Without any actual experience it's just playing around with ideas and theories, which in itself is fun and refreshing, but doesn't contribute too much in the end. And the subject is really worth serious exploring, imho.

[GregWS]

However, I personally think you should focus on finishing a game first.

I do agree with that, and in some senses I wish I hadn't started the blog until I'd released something; I don't see it as a very serious time commitment though.  I also don't see the blog being specifically about techniques for making game, instead focusing on things already-released games have done intelligently.  How you want to incorporate that into your own design process is really entirely up to you.  But yes, I agree with you entirely that theories are worthless until they've been proven in practice.

To be brutally honest about all this, I really don't think I'm educated/experienced enough in either architecture or games to be writing this blog, and that's the main reason I hadn't started it until recently.  Were anyone else more qualified than myself taking this on, I'd gladly stop doing it, but I'm not seeing this topic being seriously covered anywhere.

In light of that, I'm treading very lightly with my posts, and I like to think that I have been from the get-go. 

[Inanimate]

I don't think you have to have released a game to observe them and comment on them, frankly! Just like how movie critics don't necessarily need to have made a movie! You just have to have the thinking to be able to analyze games and such, which you clearly have. I think that you are perfectly qualified to comment on games, and I encourage it! Your blog is entertaining and intelligent. Don't put yourself down!

[GregWS]

Thanks man; that essentially how I feel about it...though I do still need to finish a game. 

Anyway, I just wrote a post in that light, looking at the Mithalas Cathedral area of Aquaria, and how the design of that space helps put you into the same state of mind as Naija says she's in during the narrations.

[Hajo]

To be brutally honest about all this, I really don't think I'm educated/experienced enough in either architecture or games to be writing this blog [...]

There are much less knowledgeable people wrinting about topics. Your blog is a interesting read - I don't care if you finished a game yet or not. You observer things, you think about your observations and you share your thoughts. That is alright, and it's on the reader to decide if this is useful for them or not.

[TeeGee]

I also don't see the blog being specifically about techniques for making game, instead focusing on things already-released games have done intelligently.

Hey, if that's the case, then you obviously don't have to be a game developer. I think I kinda misread your intention there. Sorry. Reading analysis of existing games from architect's point of view is still very interesting.
Of course, completing a game would surely give you useful insights, but don't let my comments put you down .

[Inanimate]

Loved the new post! It's sad to not see too many games doing that technique of level design.

[GregWS]

Haha, yeah, I guess to clarify: I'm 100% a hobbyist when it comes to game development, and as such a lot less of my time goes into it (given that I've got a couple other hobbies too, though they're more secondary, at least in terms of hours put in).  I'm confident it will be a hobby for a long time, but architecture's my career, so it's where my main focus is, and needs to be; thankfully, the overlap is heavy.  But yes, now that I do know a lot more about architecture (than back in high school), I feel that I need to approach game development with the kind of rigor I approach arch school projects, and that is a very challenging thing to do.

[Inanimate]

Haha, yeah, I guess to clarify: I'm 100% a hobbyist when it comes to game development, and as such a lot less of my time goes into it (given that I've got a couple other hobbies too, though they're more secondary, at least in terms of hours put in).  I'm confident it will be a hobby for a long time, but architecture's my career, so it's where my main focus is, and needs to be; thankfully, the overlap is heavy.  But yes, now that I do know a lot more about architecture (than back in high school), I feel that I need to approach game development with the kind of rigor I approach arch school projects, and that is a very challenging thing to do.

A quick question; what's architecture like? I used to be interested in it, but I got turned off a bit. I'm just curious as to your experiences with it.