Derek
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« Reply #140 on: January 28, 2010, 11:49:17 AM » |
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Haha, Paul, I love that you still remember that old Zuma gif I made way back when. I still think that's a bald-faced rip... but at least they changed the graphics and theme (seriously, at least they did that much). anyway, to repeat my position, i think this game is probably a clone of night game, every bit as much as zuma is of puzz loop, but that even blatant clones can sometimes produce some positive benefits (like maybe more people will find out about night game through this game), so i'm not gonna condemn it totally; and sometimes a game can both be a rip off and worth playing, like that giana sisters game
Yes, but you don't know whether there'd be MORE positive benefits had the ripper not ripped at all. We know this: 1. Having your game ripped off is discouraging to the creator and to other creators who do more original work. 2. When clones succeed, it drives more people to adopt the practice. 3. When clones get away with it, it drives more people to adopt the practice. 4. It's a lazy, tawdry thing to do. These things have a compounding effect. To appreciate the small positive benefit of a clone is really to also dismiss the potential good that would have come out of the clone NEVER BEING RELEASED AT ALL. It's hard enough to make and finish games without worrying about rips. if so, better a rip-off game than no game.
Think about an original game that might not have come out because of rampant cloning. Maybe not better after all?
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Mipe
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« Reply #141 on: January 28, 2010, 11:52:19 AM » |
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Hmm, we need someone to clone Duke Nukem Forever, then... it is the only way we'll ever get it!
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Gnarf
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« Reply #142 on: January 28, 2010, 12:08:04 PM » |
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I was under the impression that the most recent unreleased Duke Nukem Forever was a clone of the second most recent unreleased Duke Nukem Forever only with tightened up graphics.
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nikki
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« Reply #143 on: January 28, 2010, 01:27:39 PM » |
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Hi again, Actually, reading some of the links that nikki linked to (and didn't read himself, it would seem), it seems to mean ...it would be a good idea to try to understand the meaning of a quote before using it in a discussion. ah man come on, a quote means what it means, whenever people start to interpretet these thing and tell the world it actually means something different namely X. I smile a little. Especially if your interpretation of the quote is actually the interpretation of a blogger by tha name of "Thomas Stephan" who just copy-pasted his idea's from some other quotes. And finally you start waving with it. This is not neccessary. The quote says what it says The reason why i put that quote there to begin with, is that i doubted people would want to hear the same opinion but then by a non-famous artist. I namely think this practice is well... maybe ok If you don't want your ideas stolen, you shouldn't be telling the world about them. Or you should do so only after you secured them. I am sure the original creator of this work is much beter capable of making it greater then the copier. But i suppose there are countless 'clones' out there that are better then the original. So why not ? And since the 'cloned' game hasn't stolen content but just used the same style plus gameplay it's prefectly legal. (saddening inspirationless but perfectly legal) To me there is not a real point in agreeing with everybody here this practice is morally wrong, naughty, bad or whatever. I don't know that. I do know that if the first guys who invented the interwebs wouldn't want other to know about it, copy it, do it everywhere, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion here
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #144 on: January 28, 2010, 01:57:27 PM » |
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ah man come on, a quote means what it means, whenever people start to interpretet these thing and tell the world it actually means something different namely X. I smile a little. Yeah, because it would be really stupid to interpret what an artist says. But let's go with your view that "it means what it means" (whatever that is supposed to mean). So, Picasso maliciously stole from lesser known artist to get fame and fortune. Why, then, would he go around talking about this so he'd be famously quoted years after his death? Wouldn't that be pretty counter-productive? Isn't it just slightly more likely that he didn't mean it literally, but when used the word "steal" did in fact mean it in the way of taking something and making it your own instead of just copying? The quote makes perfect sense like that: - An immature artist will just see something neat and copy it. - A mature artist will see something interesting and finds way to make it work better, in a new context and/or put his own stamp on it. And even if your interpretation is true and Picasso outright stole from other artists and for some strange reason let people know, how does that make it any better when other people do it? If you don't want your ideas stolen, you shouldn't be telling the world about them. Or you should do so only after you secured them. Now you lost me completely. What a sad and dark world we'd be living in if everybody shared the viewpoint that if you don't want your ideas stolen, don't share them. I bet a lot of forums here on the boards would be completely empty if people were afraid of sharing their ideas if they hadn't been properly "secured" yet...
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nikki
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« Reply #145 on: January 28, 2010, 03:20:03 PM » |
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well this quote wasn't meant only for you chrknudsen. But i'm happy to answer some of those questions: i don't really understand your first joke/sentence/sarcasm thing so i'll go with yours my view: First of all i state that i prefer the quote as-is, so without any layers of third-parties interpretations. I believe i haven't said the quote was meant litteraly, i am pretty sure it's not about stealing others people possesions though. It's about there ideas and creativiness, i think i have heard that the joke is that our friend Pablo actually stole this quote in the first place. I am sorry to have scared you with an insight in the dark and harsh world that is my brain, maybe my idea of sharing is your idea of stealing, who knows? I absolutely think ideas are meant to be stolen. Especcially the real good ones!
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #146 on: January 28, 2010, 03:34:21 PM » |
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i don't really understand your first joke/sentence/sarcasm thing so i'll go with yours my view: I was merely pointing out that interpreting the words of a man who lived for making art that would be interpreted maybe wasn't as silly as you made it out to be? But to hell with it, let's drink some beer!
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nikki
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« Reply #147 on: January 28, 2010, 03:50:56 PM » |
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #149 on: January 28, 2010, 09:00:58 PM » |
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Yes, but you don't know whether there'd be MORE positive benefits had the ripper not ripped at all.
yeah, but that was exactly my point. we don't know. that's why i neither condemn things like this nor promote them, because it's impossible to know whether more positive than negative came out of it, or vice versa. what i mean is: every decision we make has an infinitude of negative and positive consequences, far beyond our imagining. and this particular issue has much good and much bad coming from it.
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #150 on: January 28, 2010, 09:38:06 PM » |
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It's a blatant ripoff and everyone knows it.
It's one thing to take inspiration from, it's another to copy the WHOLE art style (spiral plants, silhouette, orange blue gradient, the gradient ON the ball, etc), gameplay, physics (the friction and restitution feel exactly the same in both games, I've played both as I mentioned before), mood, music style, and all the LITTLE THINGS too. The fact that both games do not have scrolling sections, and flip between screens as you cross the border, the platforms hanging on chains, etc.
I'm usually skeptical when calling something a blatant ripoff, because I know a "physics ball bearing game" and "silhouette graphics" are common topics, but when you add in everything else (and look at the company, which cloned other popular indie games too), it is OBVIOUS that it is a ripoff.
NO QUESTION
and it is harmful to the people making the actual game.
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Shade Jackrabbit
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« Reply #151 on: January 28, 2010, 09:43:31 PM » |
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Uh, Glaiel, you started your argument saying we all know it's a ripoff, you continued by explaining that it was a ripoff (which I think everyone agrees on now), then ends by saying that it's a ripoff. That was kinda pointless. The only argument you haven't presented it why it's harmful. Not disagreeing with you, just saying that you seem to have explained the wrong thing.
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["Thread Reader" - Read a thread.]
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #152 on: January 28, 2010, 10:02:27 PM » |
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The argument for why it's harmful is the same as the argument for piracy
The only "positive" for piracy is "more people will play your game, and more people will like you as a developer because of it". That's a different argument, but besides the point, someone cloning your game completely destroys that part of piracy and only leaves the "less sales" part there.
I.E. Look at crayon physics. Look at the tons of crayon physics clones EVERYWHERE. Read kotaku or another mainstream gaming blog's user comments on an article on crayon physics. "Why would I get this game for $20 when I can find basically the same game everywhere else for free? Looks so generic and bland"
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Lon
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« Reply #153 on: January 28, 2010, 11:38:45 PM » |
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I find the rising levels of captiousness in this thread unbecoming of the TIGSource community. I also find Trundle to be substantially similar to that of Night Sky. So much so that I would imagine it is very likely infringing on the copyright of Night Sky. I know it has already been stated, and even have some nice photos provided in this thread, but I still found it disappointing and a bit shocking/jarring to see the screen shots of Trundle's 'Tethered Objects', 'Windmill', and 'Vehicle', that look so similar to .
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« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 12:08:34 AM by BigLon »
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“We all sorely complain of the shortness of time, and yet have much more than we know what to do with. Our lives are either spent in doing nothing at all, or in doing nothing to the purpose, or in doing nothing that we ought to do..." -Seneca
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #154 on: January 29, 2010, 02:07:46 AM » |
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The argument for why it's harmful is the same as the argument for piracy
The only "positive" for piracy is "more people will play your game, and more people will like you as a developer because of it". That's a different argument, but besides the point, someone cloning your game completely destroys that part of piracy and only leaves the "less sales" part there.
I.E. Look at crayon physics. Look at the tons of crayon physics clones EVERYWHERE. Read kotaku or another mainstream gaming blog's user comments on an article on crayon physics. "Why would I get this game for $20 when I can find basically the same game everywhere else for free? Looks so generic and bland"
that's still only a negative for the developer of crayon physics. it's not necessarily a negative for the general population (perhaps it's even a positive, since they can enjoy the game without paying for it by playing its clones). nobody is really arguing that cloning games is a positive for the person whose games are cloned. just that it could be a positive to other people. i think the reason a lot of people don't like this behavior is because it goes against the idea of cheaters never winning. but cheaters do sometimes win. popcap won, mitchell lost, since zuma is more famous than puzz loop and probably made a lot more money.
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nikki
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« Reply #155 on: January 29, 2010, 03:38:56 AM » |
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That's exactly the thing i was thinking about a few hours ago Paul, I agree. Furthermore, alot of people on this forum are all about that this indie-game designing is an art-form. Well I happen to originally come from more of an fine-art background. And i've been taught that in that world it's completely legitimate to clone, copy, steal and everything. Thats because your in the business of making culture. And Culture is -in its very nature- a theft sensitive thing, and i'm very thankfull for that You can only look after your baby-creation while it's in your studio. After that your baby (being your creation, visually,intellectually or otherwise) goes out into the world And it has to stand on its own feet. If your thing is good, it'll get cloned. Thats very nice for the people and the world. It could be frustrating for the original 'inventor' however, i don't see how it can be harmfull though. If it would be harmfull that such a thing would get cloned, its up to the original creator to try to prevent that. Many posibilities for that, all of them a bit silly in my book. Anyway I am curious what nifflas himself has got to say about all this.
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #156 on: January 29, 2010, 03:42:29 AM » |
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that's still only a negative for the developer of crayon physics. it's not necessarily a negative for the general population (perhaps it's even a positive, since they can enjoy the game without paying for it by playing its clones).
nobody is really arguing that cloning games is a positive for the person whose games are cloned. just that it could be a positive to other people. This pretty much goes without saying. If a thief steals a car, that'll be a positive to him as he'll have a new car, but a negative to the owner of the car. Does that mean that there are positive aspects to car stealing? Of course not. This is really getting ridiculous...
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nikki
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« Reply #157 on: January 29, 2010, 03:52:15 AM » |
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the original idea of a car (4 wheels, roof, engine (instead of horses)) has been stolen countless times, and everytime it got stolen the world became a bit better (as in more countries were developing themselves, more people were able to get that all-new brand spanking way of transportation, more people were able to work in that industry) I don't believe that process was very harmfull for the original inventor, and even if it was, it is much better that it got stolen, because now we all can have a car!
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Christian Knudsen
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« Reply #158 on: January 29, 2010, 03:56:41 AM » |
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This is turning in to the piracy thread. I'm out.
EDIT: By the way, my car thief analogy sucked. I should have compared it to fake brands and replicas in fashion. C'est la vie.
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« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 04:08:23 AM by chrknudsen »
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Problem Machine
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« Reply #159 on: January 29, 2010, 04:20:03 AM » |
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Yeah I'm thinking it's maybe time for a mod to lock this. Anyone?
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