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[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

what i mean is: every decision we make has an infinitude of negative and positive consequences, far beyond our imagining. and this particular issue has much good and much bad coming from it.

Exactly; after all, you never know if that adorable little boy is going to grow up to be the next Hitler. This is why child murder should be legal.

to an extent legality is a best guess about the benefit and harm of a general type of action. sometimes driving drunk makes someone a better driver, or otherwise prevents a car crash in some minority of cases, but it's still illegal because most of the time it doesn't.

also, i think it's a bit hyperbolic to compare this to murdering children; cloning a game is not like murdering children at all. it's more like copying something out of the encyclopedia word for word on your school paper. and a good chunk of people in school have done that.

even in commercial, professional books you often find authors doing stuff like that, copying other authors word for word and passing it off as their own writing. even obama used a ghostwriter to write his book (the audacity of hope), he didn't write it himself. so as i said, cheaters generally win, they don't generally get caught, and even when they get caught people make excuses for them.

i think the consequences of a world without cloning would be quite dire. of course, one positive benefit of that would be that the fps genre would never have come into existence, which makes such a world sound more appealing to me.

[Problem Machine]

also, i think it's a bit hyperbolic to compare this to murdering children; cloning a game is not like murdering children at all.

I wasn't, I was comparing your stupid ethical argument to another similar argument applied to another situation. Basically, under that system I could punch you in the face and pee on you and justify that with "Hey, maybe it'll all turn out for the better this way. Who's to say? Cause and effect! Crazy shit!"

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i don't see what this has to do with ethics. obviously this behavior is unethical, i don't think anybody disagrees with that.

[nikki]

Because this thread is turning Hitler-childmurderative, i'll go Art.




Ugo Rondinone , No 229, 2003
(Sold for $505.000 (Sothebys 2008))


Wojciech Fangor, #14, 1969
(Sold for $40.000 (Christies 2009))

i'll requote the quote I quoted earlier

"Good artists borrow, great artists steal", (P.Picasso)

[moi]

I'm sure the Nazis would be very supportive of this guy who is hacking Nifflas' game, they would probably name a concentraion camp in his honour, is that what you want, you people who support him?
My grandfather didn't give his life during ww2 to have nicalis games being stolen like it didn't matter.
Are we gonna let this happen?

[Gold Cray]

I'm glad that a couple of radial gradients can sell for $40k

EDIT: Unless that's $40 and we are now measuring currency in tenths of a cent.

[Problem Machine]

i don't see what this has to do with ethics. obviously this behavior is unethical, i don't think anybody disagrees with that.

In that case... what exactly is your argument?

[Craig Stern]

I think Paul is saying that there are benefits to cloning games as well as drawbacks, and that it's a matter of perspective whether the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

[Mipe]

The difference is our choice of action in case of cloning. Can we stop it? Yes, if we don't release our prototypes at all until the game is finished. Other than that, as soon as we release a prototype, we can expect clones, there isn't much we can do about that.

So when the inevitable happens, might as well benefit from it rather than banging the head against the nearest vertical or horizontal surface. You can see how well the game mechanic is received by observing the clone then adjusting changes to your game so that it won't have those flaws.

Then you release a much, much more competitive product!

[William Broom]

Mipey, that sounds like a good plan, but I think you would have to be some sort of anime villain to pull it off.

"Mobile Bros, you think you can damage with your cheap knockoff of my new indie game. But what you do not realise is that events are proceeding exactly as I have predicted them."

[moi]

I had never heard of "night game" before all this internet controversy

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I think Paul is saying that there are benefits to cloning games as well as drawbacks, and that it's a matter of perspective whether the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

correct. this aspect of it hasn't been mentioned, but i at least think cloning games is a great learning experience. most programmers when they're first making games make a tetris clone or a pac man clone or an asteroids clone or something simple like that.

basing your entire business model around cloning games, changing them just enough so that you can't be sued, and selling them for platforms that they do not yet exist on probably isn't sustainable long-term. popcap eventually had to start making original games: plants vs zombies isn't really a clone of anything (besides tower defense, but it's not a clone in the same sense that zuma was). and though it's pretty rude to do, as a quick way for someone to make money it can be beneficial to them, provided they have low ethical standards and don't care about being popular in the community. and there's benefit to all the people who don't own the platform a game's set on but have access to the platform that the clone is set on.

[jpgray]

that's still only a negative for the developer of crayon physics. it's not necessarily a negative for the general population (perhaps it's even a positive, since they can enjoy the game without paying for it by playing its clones).

nobody is really arguing that cloning games is a positive for the person whose games are cloned. just that it could be a positive to other people.

i think the reason a lot of people don't like this behavior is because it goes against the idea of cheaters never winning. but cheaters do sometimes win. popcap won, mitchell lost, since zuma is more famous than puzz loop and probably made a lot more money.

For this reason, I suppose I ought to just pirate Immortal Defense, and give copies to all my friends.  For the good of the general population!  Shame about the developers, though.  Who's to say what's "wrong," when we can be smug and unctuous about our wanderings in a self-imposed ethical fog?

[Lurk]

Jpgray- Pirating a game is not the same as cloning one. If an idea is any good, chances are it's going to be cloned/remade by many different people, who will bring their own special touch to the deal. For example, the Valis serie could well be called a cheap Castlevania clone(one of the episode even had a character using a whip). But the different universe and awesome(for the time) cinematics made it stand on it's own. Cloning a graphical style is a bit harder and usually the acclaim will go to those who can make it better.

[nikki]

I believe when you look at this phenomena from a broader view, you'll find the meme theory maybe usefull.

from its first paragraph

A meme (pronounced /ˈmiːm/, rhyming with "cream"[1]) is a postulated unit of cultural ideas, symbols or practices, which can be transmitted from one mind to another through speech, gestures, rituals or other imitable phenomena. (The etymology of the term relates to the Greek word μιμητισμός (pronounced /mɪmetɪsmos/) for "something imitated".)[2] Supporters of the concept regard memes as cultural analogues to genes, in that they self-replicate and respond to selective pressures.[3]

[schlarb]

Hello there. My name is Chris Schlarb and I wrote the music for Night Sky.

I read through all 13 pages of the discussion here and I wanted to jump in really quick.

From the earliest time that stills from Night Sky were shared (it was then called Night Game), Nifflas acknowledged that he was not the first to use Chinese shadow art or gradients. The inspiration that Nifflas found in other games (combined with observing nature) was filtered through is own talent and sensibilities as Night Sky was created. The way that any artist (I consider designers and programmers to be artists) deals with inspiration is the key to this type of issue.

Trundle saw no transformative leap from inspiration to creation. Mobile Bros saw Night Sky videos and tried to approximate a game that was already in development. They figured out to how copy the tile-based level design, added their own cheesy synth soundtrack and changed the name to Trundle. Looking through their site it is easy to see that they were also "inspired" to clone Peggle as well. In some ways it's no different from any other art-based, money-fueled industry. Check out the stuff that Tom Waits has had to deal with. Waits has refused all offers to use his music in commercials. One company, Adam Opel AG, decided to hire a sound-alike (an approximation, if you will) and Waits sued. He won: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Waits#Lawsuits

Obviously my perspective is colored by my involvement in the project. Nifflas and I spent quite a long time working on Night Sky and I feel comfortable enough to say that we are both proud of our work. Personally, I wrote almost 50 minutes of music for the game and I think it may be some of the best music I have composed. Coincidentally, the Night Sky soundtrack is all live instruments. Instead of "ambient" synth sounds, I used electric guitars, brass, marimba, upright bass, electronics, and so on. Likewise, the level design of Night Sky is imbued with Nifflas' unique design sensibilities and sense of humor.

Even though Trundle has copied the style, it cannot duplicate the soul of of Night Sky.


All the best,
Chris Schlarb

[Johann]

Then fight it. If you let it pass silently you're not doing anyone a favour, least of all yourself. You could at least write an open letter..

[nikki]

Then fight it

Join the angry indie mob !
And show your respect to all things indie!


Get your hardware here !

You could join the pussy mob too, and start bitching

(with your youtube permission)

[Glaiel-Gamer]

Then fight it. If you let it pass silently you're not doing anyone a favour, least of all yourself. You could at least write an open letter..

Well see, the last thing trundle needs is publicity. At least until it's pulled.

[Christian Knudsen]

It was already pulled on the 29th.