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[skaldicpoet9]

...and getting ruined by the entire tigforums for having the sheer gall to actually make an independent game based on that inspiration. Why, that's downright fucking disturbing.

I am sorry maybe I wasn't around when this occurred but what exactly is it that you are talking about?

[Problem Machine]

Nothing sweety, you just carry on with whatever the hell it was you were doing.

[team_q]

I honestly believe that using someone else's work as a shortcut for your ideas is bad. I really do. I also agree that this game looks like it riffs heavy off of night game. But based on the trailers, which I watched side by side, there is enough cool stuff that didn't make it into Trundle that I'm willing to give them a pass. Hell, we don't even know if they play similarly since we don't have our hands on them.
If we were to compare this to Tumbledrop ripoffs, This seems more Redstar then Bloppo, but people still wanted to outrage over Red Remover, a game that is superficially like Tumbledrop.

Bottom line: Is it a rip off? Yeah. Is it a clone? Well you can't really say they are the same game based on the videos, unless Trundle is hiding a lot of cool stuff.

moi is the only one defending Grundle who's worthy enough to admit the true nature of his feelings.

My true feelings? I'm tired of people denouncing things as ripoffs and clones, often when it's unwarranted(this not being the strongest instance, but I digress), it makes it shitty if you like something that people consider a rip-off and you feel like you have to defend your tastes. That and I really don't like how polarized peoples opinions on the Internet are, its like watching Fox news.

[Lon]

I believe an important question about Trundle is whether or not it is attempting to emulate and/or copy the soon to be released NightSky.

If Trundle was created trying to be original, then I am cool with that.  If Trundle was created in hopes to emulate/copy NightSky, then that isn't cool.

I also agree with Shade Jackrabbit that it may be difficult to judge whether or not one game is trying to emulate the other since NightSky has yet to be released and Trundle doesn't have much content released yet (as far as I know).

I think Eric is correct in that we should be careful to label Trundle a ripoff.  Doing so without having played either game and just trying to compare them from trailers may be disrespectful of the developers.  The games look similar in that they both use silhouettes, a black ball in a 2D platformy worlds, and try to progress from left to right involving physicsy puzzles.  But that doesn't necessarily mean one is a rip off of the other.

Anyways I hope they are both end up being fun and orinal games (though you know, Red Ball and N-Ball have been out for some time now... XP  They look a bit different than either NightSky or Trundle)

...and getting ruined by the entire tigforums for having the sheer gall to actually make an independent game based on that inspiration. Why, that's downright fucking disturbing.

I am sorry maybe I wasn't around when this occurred but what exactly is it that you are talking about?

Perhaps this thread?
I think that you should go ahead and make the game you want.  If you want to use a similar art style, fine, or mechanics, cool, or music, or atmosphere, that is dandy, just make sure you are making your game, not remaking some one else' game.

PS Eric McQuiggan has a lot of good points.

[Derek]

But not NEARLY as unsettling as the idea of some guy playing WaDF and seeing the teaser for Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet, getting inspired, and getting ruined by the entire tigforums for having the sheer gall to actually make an independent game based on that inspiration. Why, that's downright fucking disturbing.

Ha!  That's kind of a stretch.  Occam's Razor and all that...  Plus, he's not getting ruined.  He seems like he's getting a pretty fair shake here, actually.  Nicalis is the only one who can really do anything, anyway.

Better now? 

Yeah, thanks.

It sounds like we agree on how to handle it (i.e. not going batshit on him), so that's fine.  I'm okay with disagreeing about what degree he was "inspired" by Night Sky.

My true feelings? I'm tired of people denouncing things as ripoffs and clones, often when it's unwarranted(this not being the strongest instance, but I digress), it makes it shitty if you like something that people consider a rip-off and you feel like you have to defend your tastes. That and I really don't like how polarized peoples opinions on the Internet are, its like watching Fox news.

Haha, yeah - I think people over or under-compensate in arguments like these depending on how they perceive the issue as a whole.  (e.g. Someone thinks a very popular game is "okay" but in an argument they call it "completely and utter shit".) In general, I like to believe that people are more moderate than they seem at first.  Being less snarky and sarcastic seems to move the discussion towards the center, at least, and makes it easier to find out where beliefs overlap rather than diverge.

I think the videos look insanely similar - enough that Trundle almost looks like a prototype of Night Sky.  But I guess I'll hold my tongue until I actually try it.  (I probably won't, though... I'd rather wait for the better game and just play that.)

[Glaiel-Gamer]

I played Night Game at the IGF last year

I played Trundle last night.



It is a BLATANT ripoff of Night Game. Spiral plants in the background, the gradient in the center of the ball, even the friction and collision restitution constants feel the same.

[Problem Machine]

But not NEARLY as unsettling as the idea of some guy playing WaDF and seeing the teaser for Insanely Twisted Shadow Planet, getting inspired, and getting ruined by the entire tigforums for having the sheer gall to actually make an independent game based on that inspiration. Why, that's downright fucking disturbing.

Ha!  That's kind of a stretch.  Occam's Razor and all that...  Plus, he's not getting ruined.  He seems like he's getting a pretty fair shake here, actually.  Nicalis is the only one who can really do anything, anyway.

Hyperbole for the sake of argument and all that. Regardless, it seems clear from most of the preceding discussion that to a lot of people in this thread this guy's name is already mud; maybe it's justified, maybe it isn't, but having that kind of impression on people is hard to come back from, and even if the simplest explanation is that it's a ripoff I don't think it's necessarily fair to judge peoples' character based on Occam's Razor.

I guess I just prefer to defer judgment until I see something really damning, because I find the idea of someone getting the cold shoulder after making good faith efforts based on a shitty coincidence really repugnant.

[Lon]

I guess I just prefer to defer judgment until I see something really damning, because I find the idea of someone getting the cold shoulder after making good faith efforts based on a shitty coincidence really repugnant.

I played Night Game at the IGF last year

I played Trundle last night.



It is a BLATANT ripoff of Night Game. Spiral plants in the background, the gradient in the center of the ball, even the friction and collision restitution constants feel the same.

That looks really damning.

[Problem Machine]

Moderately so. Sure, it's a first hand observation, but it's still just one guy- far from a consensus. I played Night Game at GDC too, but I don't have an iPhone to test it out so I can't do a direct comparison myself.

I guess the standard I'm applying here is the same as the US legal system; innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Things look bad for this guy, but there are still reasonable explanations for it that wouldn't preclude his innocence.

[Craig Stern]

I guess the standard I'm applying here is the same as the US legal system; innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Things look bad for this guy, but there are still reasonable explanations for it that wouldn't preclude his innocence.

That's the criminal law standard. To win a civil suit under the Copyright Act, you just need a preponderance of the evidence (i.e. it's more likely than not that he copied the work without permission and crerated something substantially similar).

[Problem Machine]

I'm not making a legal argument, I'm saying that my basis for making a judgment of someone's character is much the same as that used by the criminal justice system. I suppose I could have been more specific, but it seems like you got the idea anyway.

[Lon]

Well, I try to treat people much as I would like to be treated.  

Kobel, if you are trying to make a judgement of the developers' character, then you might want to look at Mobile Bros' Energy Harvest and Auditorium.

[Problem Machine]

Well, I try to treat people much as I would like to be treated.  

Kobel, if you are trying to make a judgement of the developers' character, then you might want to look at Mobile Bros' Energy Harvest and Auditorium.

See, that's exactly it; this isn't anywhere NEAR that bad 

[Lon]

Well, I try to treat people much as I would like to be treated.  

Kobel, if you are trying to make a judgement of the developers' character, then you might want to look at Mobile Bros' Energy Harvest and Auditorium.

See, that's exactly it; this isn't anywhere NEAR that bad  

Your post cracks me up.  I might be tired and therefore mistaken, you might already know, but you everyone reading this post should know that Mobile Bros are also the ones who made Trundle.

[Problem Machine]

I didn't know, but that certainly seems far more damning than anything brought up thus far to me. But hey, at least they're getting better, and ripping things off less thoroughly? 

[Lon]

I didn't know, but that certainly seems far more damning than anything brought up thus far to me. But hey, at least they're getting better, and ripping things off less thoroughly?  

That was exactly what I was thinking, took the words right from my brain.
Glaiel-Gamer is not the only one who has played Trundle and stated that it "is a BLATANT ripoff of Night Game", other player of Trundle seem to think so too.

[Derek]

Well, I try to treat people much as I would like to be treated.  

Kobel, if you are trying to make a judgement of the developers' character, then you might want to look at Mobile Bros' Energy Harvest and Auditorium.

See, that's exactly it; this isn't anywhere NEAR that bad  

Your post cracks me up.  I might be tired and therefore mistaken, you might already know, but you everyone reading this post should know that Mobile Bros are also the ones who made Trundle.

Alright, REALLY, does anyone still think this is okay by any stretch of the imagination?!

[SelfTitled]

copying game mechanics fair enough I made a rolling platformer years ago, I could claim that both of these games ripped off my original, except it wasn't original i willing to bet it had been done before that. It's the fact that they ripped off the art style too that annoys me.

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."

[Hajo]

I guess that's a lesson in not showing your work too early?

The problem is, that you need to advertise your game some time before it is released. So on the one hand, you want to show your work early, build up some attention for your project, but at the same time you want to avoid your ideas being copied ... it is close to impossible to have both.

In another forum someone once said: You can't prevent being copied. But you can be a step ahead.

It's a sad race, but indeed, you're on the run and must be a step ahead of competitors.

Alright, REALLY, does anyone still think this is okay by any stretch of the imagination?!

Not really. Drawing inspiration from a project is ok IMO, but from what I saw here, it's not drawing inspiration but copying in this case - even if there are things added or changed, it's too much of a copy.

I mean, it lacks respect to the original work.

[Mipe]

Wow... I recall there was huge copycat drama around Energy Harvest and Trundle. I don't know about Auditorium, though.