Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1411517 Posts in 69377 Topics- by 58431 Members - Latest Member: Bohdan_Zoshchenko

April 28, 2024, 12:10:40 AM

Need hosting? Check out Digital Ocean
(more details in this thread)
TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignFun Mechanics vs. Level Keys
Pages: [1] 2
Print
Author Topic: Fun Mechanics vs. Level Keys  (Read 5521 times)
droqen
Level 10
*****


View Profile WWW
« on: February 08, 2010, 12:34:48 PM »

I eventually made this post on my blog expanding upon this concept

Fun Mechanic:
Bombs (Spelunky)

Level Key:
Bombs (Zelda)


In Spelunky, what do you do with bombs? Whatever the hell you want. They're fun tools with multiple uses: You blow up obstacles, enemies, and sticky bombs make things even better.

In Zelda, what do you do with bombs? ... Well, you blow up preset obstacles (as examples: cracked walls, big rocks). Sometimes you use them to kill certain enemies, too -- but they're only really useful for the ones you're meant to kill with bombs. They're kind of fun tools (but not really very fun aside from the BOOM! animation) with just about no uses aside from what the game has specifically laid out for them.


There are more examples to be had, of course, but this is all I'm going to go into for now -- it's a great comparison, bombs vs. bombs.

Having Bombs in Spelunky is fun. You save them for when you really need them, but it's ultimately up to you: When do you need them? Whether you're going to be blowing up a boss, a shopkeeper, or a wall that's in your way, they're there to say "Hey! Use us as you will!"

In Zelda games, Bombs are not as fun. You get bombs, but what do you do with them? You test things that look like they could be blown up. If it works, hooray! You've made a bit of progress or found a secret. If not? No big deal, you go pick up some more bombs along your way.


Back to the more general topic of Fun Mechanics vs. Level Keys.
When you have a Fun Mechanic, the player should be able to use the mechanic as he sees fit. It isn't always just a question of level design, whereas with a Level Key it is.

Fun Mechanic: The player says "I want to use X for Y. It would be fun to use it for Z."

Level Key: The player says "I need to use X for Y. Why would I use it for Z? It's there to be used for Y."

And I imagine this is why people like sequence breaking in Metroidvanias. They're taking something that is supposed to be a level key, and instead using the fun mechanics that already exist (even if they are such simple things as movement, or jumping of various flavours) to stick it to the man, where "the man" is the game developer creating level keys instead of more fun mechanics.

I like Fun Mechanics and dislike Level Keys (which are in some cases simply door keys; at least they aren't trying to disguise themselves as a Fun Mechanic!), hence the connotations I've assigned to the names I have given to them. However, I don't know about others. What do you think about these two things? Do you like Level Keys in a game?


Other Examples

Fun Mechanics:
  • Myriad of Weapons (Cave Story). You never need a certain weapon; they only exist for ease and fun, otherwise Polar Star runs wouldn't exist.
  • Gravity Gun (Half-Life 2). I think this one was more akin to a Fun Mechanic. Although sometimes the physics puzzles you had to solve with it were pretty basic, it's also way too much fun to ragdoll enemies with barrels and crates. Oh, and the sawblades.
  • Various Cool Weapons (Et Cetera). In general, most alternate weapons are Fun Mechanics. However they aren't always different enough to provide a wide variety of fun.
  • Give me more examples of Fun Mechanics in games!

Level Keys:
  • Time Period Shifting (Paradox Embrace). It may change in further levels, but what is a purportedly interesting mechanic seems horribly dull and lifeless to me. Although this is probably the least-known game on my list, this game is what made me think about this entire concept.
  • Silver/Golden Gaunlets (Zelda). You pick up big rocks... to get them out of your way. Pretty much as key-like as it comes. They also let you push heavy stuff, but this is all really the same as lifting/pushing light stuff, except... it's heavier stuff.
  • Give me more examples of Level Keys in games!

Halfways:
  • Clairvoyance (Psychonauts). It's useless outside of what it's required for, but it's still a lot of fun to see how other entities see you.
  • Songs (Zelda). They vary from "holy shit I can use this to freeze re-deads, or something" to "wow it opens this one door I'm so excited". I live for the Fun Mechanic songs in Zelda games. Which, sadly, have seen little love as of late.
  • Give me more examples of elements that are between the two!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 11:12:57 AM by Droqen » Logged

Gnarf
Guest
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2010, 01:48:04 PM »

Do you like Level Keys in a game?

Yeah.

I'm not sure why the two would be versus each other.

I suppose I'd be happy to trade one switch palace for a frog suit, but I don't think it really works like that.
Logged
JMickle
Level 10
*****



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2010, 03:00:13 PM »

its difficult to change one from the other. If bombs could blow up anything they want in zelda, you would have to design every single room and puzzle to make sure you can't break the game with them. Spelunky doesn't have designed levels, so that precaution has already been taken.
Logged

droqen
Level 10
*****


View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2010, 03:20:13 PM »

Well, I'm pitting the two against each other because there's such a difficult-to-define line between them.
Hence the "Halfways" list at the bottom Wink

Also, these Level Keys in the guise of a Fun Mechanic frequently have as much work put into them (in technical terms) as the Fun Mechanic would.

You wouldn't have to make bombs (in Zelda) be able to blow everything up of course; they should, however, be fun. If you have bombs, they are an ineffective combat tool for the most part. Why? Why shouldn't you be able to throw bombs at enemies and not feel like a tool for doing so (for most of them, anyhow)?

Too many enemies have a straightforward method of defeat. "This guy eats bombs and is practically untouchable by anything else". "That eye tower is made of metal so obviously you can't damage it with anything -- you can just stun it with a bomb".

Not to say I have anything against Zelda games, but I feel like in general Level Keys are cop-outs. They're easier to design for, but the end result in general is not as good as a game filled with Fun Mechanics.
Logged

Cagey
Level 1
*



View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2010, 04:00:09 PM »

This was a really interesting post. I haven't thought of mechanics like that at all before.

The Gravity Gun in Half Life 2 might be a good example of a half-way.
Logged

Parthon
Level 1
*


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2010, 05:32:25 PM »

Damn you Droqen and your ability to write posts that I must respond to.

This is an interesting topic actually. It's really an examination of what purpose items have in games. Some are weapons, for enhanced movement, or just for fun, but many are just to pass the next obstacle(boring). There's also a whole group of 'useless' items that aren't fun, good for weapons or a level key. Still, 'useless' items can provide flavour to the game, and so can level keys, they just don't tend to.

Now for some lists, c/o LoZelda.

Fun Mechanics:
Sword! Woo! Slash, cut, swing, chop, kill.
Bottles: potions and fairies.

Level Keys:
Keys, literally.
Bombs: as above.
Silver/Golden Gauntlets.
Triforce/Amulets/Tokens/Etc.
Almost all current dungeon items.

Halfways:
Bow and arrow: Can shoot enemies *and* eyes and things far away. Enemy resistances to arrows makes it less and less useful. (WHY?!?)
Boomerang: Activate boomerang-y things and pick up items from a long way *and* stun enemies. Not as useful as it sounds, but can be handy.
Hookshot: *badink*clankclankclankclankclankclank*wheeeeee*. Yes it's mainly for crossing broken bridges, but who hasn't tried to shoot everything with it?
...Way too many.

Useless/Flavour:
Deku Nut: Wtf?

Conclusion: Zelda has very few pure-fun items, because almost everything picked up is a level key in some way.


As for other games: most weapons are pure fun items. Most pickups in exploration platformers are level keys in some way. Same goes for action rpgs.

What would the rope be in Spelunky?

My own opinion is that if you have to put a level key in, find a way to make it fun as well. Have it open secrets, kill enemies, allow the player to get to areas they normally wouldn't able to get to or do silly things.

The other thing that could be done, remove the level key part from all items. Allow the game to be finished naked and itemless if the player is so inclined. It might be much much harder for them, and for you as a designer, but having all the items in a game optional would make the game even more interesting.
Logged
Cargo
Level 0
*



View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2010, 06:35:15 PM »

I agree that in the Zelda games those items that allow you to play with them will be more fun (like a toy), than other more useful items which may feel less fun (like a tool or key).

I also think there's another feeling that comes with knowing how to use a item like a key that feels very different from fun, but is equally rewarding. I'm thinking of how you could get confused by an item at first, like the hookshot, and think it's only a weapon, but when you realize the extra potential it has as a tool, it all comes together and gives you that really nice feeling of discovery. Suddenly a whole collection of problems you've built up become clear, and that feels really good.  No, its not fun, but it's a feeling that defines the joy of Zelda games for me.

Logged
droqen
Level 10
*****


View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2010, 07:16:15 PM »

Cargo, I certainly agree with you. There's still a nice pleasant feeling you get (whether it's fun or not, it's something that makes the game enjoyable) when you figure out you can hookshot yourself over there, and that this new thing is possible, and that all those chasms are now (probably) passable with your fancy new tool.

I never said I didn't enjoy the Zelda games; I do. But that doesn't mean the game is "perfect" (whatever that means).


Cagey, definitely; I agree. There are the physics puzzles (and then the physics not-really-puzzles that still require the Gravity Gun) and then there's the raw enjoyment of AHAHAHA TAKE THAT SAWBLADE YOU DAMN ZOMBIES


Parthon (best for last obviously), yay :D I get your responses. (my preciousss)
I love the list. Bottles are arguably level keys too, most of the time, but I still enjoy picking things up in bottles.

Quote from: Parthon
if you have to put a level key in, find a way to make it fun as well.
..
The other thing that could be done, remove the level key part from all items. Allow the game to be finished naked and itemless if the player is so inclined.
I agree strongly with these sentiments.

If you have a level key with a fun purpose, who's to say it's not just a fun mechanic with an obstacle geared towards it such that you don't need to make a level key for that obstacle?

And being able to finish a game totally itemless would be nice. It should definitely be tougher, though. If you're not able to finish said game without any items, and it's not entirely obvious as to where you can get the items, you should at least be able to tell the player why they can't pass an obstacle, or give them a hint as to where to find the "level key" that they need.


I think that level keys are important, really, in many genres. They fix items to some purpose, and there's definitely a nice feeling when you realize you have to use X for Y, and you fit those puzzle pieces together. But it'd be nice to be allowed to go around too, and use a totally different item for Y, just in a different way (and at a different cost?).
Logged

SirNiko
Level 10
*****



View Profile
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2010, 07:44:42 PM »

The Metroid games always seemed to find a happy medium to this. In Zelda, you only could have one tool out at a time, so it was a matter of picking the right tool for each job. In Metroid (particularly the 2-d games, like Super Metroid) each upgrade was both a mechanic and a key. The wave beam gave you a more deadly weapon, as well as serving as the key to unlock a few specific doors. Power Bombs were a deadly weapon you could use sparingly, in addition to being a required tool to advance to Meridia via the yellow doors or glass tube.

That's the big thing about Zelda versus Metroid: as you progress in Zelda, Link doesn't seem to grow significantly more powerful. Aside from a few upgrades, like the Master Sword and increase in hearts, he's the same hero with more tools to use. By contrast, Samus becomes progressively more powerful, jumping higher, shooting more versatile beams, or becoming resistant to water.

Also note, later Zelda games have become a little more flexible on the bombs. Twilight Princess let you make Bomb Arrows, powerful projectile weapons that were very handy in combat with deadly foes like Darknuts. Wind Waker gave you Light Arrows, which essentially let you consume a chunk of magic to get an instant-kill on a foe of your choice.

I think there's more of an analog slider between "mechanic" and "key", as opposed to it always being one or the other. Most games make it somewhere in between.

-SirNiko
Logged
gimymblert
Level 10
*****


The archivest master, leader of all documents


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2010, 07:49:52 PM »

GREAT insight Shocked

Let me do some analysis:

Fun mechanics is whatever give MORE controls, agency or nuance in the play space. It impacts your position, speed and velocities in the failure/winning quadrant. Or it simply open surprising or fun reaction from the game. Any gameplay elements can be FUN mechanism, even enemy. But they are entirely optional.

Ex: ninja gaiden is a damn hard game, but controlling the character is fun and immensely satisfying. The single mechanics SHURIKEN is a weak weapon but still is fun to use. Because it put enemy in hit stun, you can use it to crowd control monster, firing a shuriken can be used to poke distant enemy and when in air it slow slightly your fall, it can be just the frame you need to avoid a powerful enemy attack. Every move the player perform in the game share these properties.

Mario 64 also have large variety of move and hidden interactions to discover within the game. Enemy themselves have a share of consequence in terms of movement in the play space, the player often take advantage of.

Rocket jump is another example of fun mechanics


PURE Level key don't give you any control, they just unlock a new step in the play progression and are generally sub goal, they are required.

In zelda, the player never interact with key beside their acquisition, once you have them you can go where you could not.

Fun mechanics can be mix with key, and it is certainly the best choice to empower the player. If a fun mechanics is only require from time to time to pass some obstacle it became a key.

Metroids is an example of game where fun mechanics (weapon precisely, double as key).

Fun mechanics can be made more fun the more consequences and nuances it give the player without breaking the game (became an exploit). If you design arrow and gives KNOCK BACK and hitstun, it's better than arrow that just do damage, even if they are weaker a player could use them to send enemy on edge into abyss or to crowd control, giving them breath, etc...

However i think that more than key, fun mechanics can be used as "bonus". Every obstacle should be able to be passed with the minimal set of movement, except it's too difficult or tedious to do so. "Fun items" should only give enough ease to pass them, they would act like keys, except not required. That way player could feel empower to go WITHOUT help and overcome a challenge by itself (like bomb jumping in metroids).

That's an awesome new tools to understand game and make them better thanks!
Logged

AaronG
Level 0
**


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2010, 08:35:33 PM »

I've always found the games I enjoy the most ask players to make meaningful choices.  The two weapons and only two weapons-mechanic in the Halo games works because something as mundane as picking up a new gun is now made into a meaningful choice: "Given the circumstances, should I give up one of my current weapons for this one and, if so, which one?"

I see the issue less as toy vs. key and more as decision vs. non-decision.  When you see a cracked wall in Zelda for the first time and have that gestalt moment of, "I should try a bomb on that!" it's fun.  Cargo mentioned using the hook-shot for non-standard reasons, i.e. on vines, and that's another good example of a lateral thinking challenge.  After that first time you complete the pattern though, future instances become non-decisions and cease to be fun.  Cracked wall in your way?  Just drop a bomb and move along.  You don't even contemplate if you should use the bomb now or save it for later because 1) that's all bombs do and 2) you can always get more later.

Use level keys to guide the player and discourage - or prevent - them from entering a section of the game they're not prepared for.  In doing so you can ramp up the complexity of the game at an appropriate rate and navigate the player between frustration and boredom.  But don't forget that redundant use of level keys quickly becomes a series of non-decision for the player.
Logged
SirNiko
Level 10
*****



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2010, 10:25:17 AM »

Zelda games always seem, to me, to provide new and interesting variations of using the level key-tools throughout. For example, the spin-disc item in Twilight Princess was terribly basic in its use: you see a spin-track, you use it. You see a spin slot, you use it. The variation on the disc was that each track was a unique obstacle course, starting with simple tracks with easy exchanges, to the more complex tracks where you had to jump between rails to dodge moving spikes.

Bombs worked the same way. You kept being presented with variations on the "This wall needs a bomb" puzzle. Sometimes you needed to spot that a wall was weak, since the cracks weren't evident (a heart container in the ice dungeon worked this way, as you had to piece together which room was directly over the heart, and therefore, you needed to destroy the floor there). Sometimes you needed to activate some feature to get the bomb to the cracked wall, such as using the underwater geysers to propel the bomb upwards towards the weak section. Sometimes it's about finding the right timing, waiting a second and then tossing the bomb so it detonates in mid-air.

Kirby 64 used lots of "key" abilities. Often, you'd encounter a star piece hidden under a color coded obstacle, with the colors telling you precisely which combination you needed to trigger it. The challenge came from getting that power, then surviving the level to that point without losing the power. That made a 'key' actually interesting.

So level keys can both be obvious and entertaining. You just need to be aware that they are keys, and therefore, you need to exercise some clever level design in order to re-insert player choice in other methods.

Also, ripping doors off the hinges in Metroid Prime 3 was always enjoyable, even if it was basically a level key that had no strategic value. That was just fun in a thoroughly visceral fashion.

-SirNiko
Logged
gimymblert
Level 10
*****


The archivest master, leader of all documents


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2010, 11:57:25 AM »

3. Key Challenge: some challenge is required to use the key and unlock progression.

Thanks Hand Thumbs Up Left Hand Metal Right
Logged

jotapeh
Level 10
*****


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2010, 12:09:06 PM »

I'm not so sure you should write off various mechanics as "only useful in xyz capacity."

I see at least two examples (bombs, deku nuts) that I used extensively both for fun and for actual gameplay advantage. Remember that every player is unique and will find ways to use items that you will not think of.
Logged
droqen
Level 10
*****


View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2010, 12:16:46 PM »

I'm at school so this is going to be short!

SirNiko: Nicely said! There certainly are level keys that are enjoyable because of the thought behind figuring out how to use them, even if there is little actual choice in terms of "how do I want to go about doing this?". And even obvious level keys can simply be fun to use (I am reminded of clairvoyance in Psychonauts).

jotapeh: I'd like to hear how you use these items! I'm aware that Deku Nuts stun things, but not about much else. Bombs seem like they'd be terribly difficult to use properly, but perhaps they can be of great assistance when used properly. I don't mean to totally write them off, I just want to highlight the examples to differentiate between the polar extremes of "Fun Mechanic" and "Level Key" which certainly do have overlap.

neoshaman: Thanks! Definitely, the most PURE level key would, quite literally, be a key in most games! I'm glad you liked the things I had to say, and ... wow, I failed at making this short. But those are some good examples.

jump: Perhaps. They can certainly be used to guide the player, and in some games a reasonable amount of path-guiding is totally necessary.
Logged

Kalebo
Level 0
*


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2010, 02:18:41 PM »

Have you played okami?

Its a metrodvania type of game with a good set of "Level Keys" that are fun to play. The slash or the bomb are used both as level keys and game mechanichs, learning how to use the bomb effectively is really fun(you have to draw the wick to adjust when the bomb had to explode for example)

But the one thing i want to point out is that figuring out what "level key power" you have to use to advance can be fun. Just like an adventure game but more in arcade way. In Castlevania you dont have to guess: i cant reach that platform until i get the double jump, i cant get past this crate until i get the pushing crate power ( Droop). thats not fun, but if you have a set of powers and a situation; looking and thinking for a way to get the goal can be fun.

What i wanted to say is that it is posibble to make Level Keys fun without being game Mechanichs, although better both.



I must admit that as the Okami game progresses the "level keys" are much more obvious and they add nothing to the mechanichs. Running out of ideas i suposse.
Logged

Kalebo is taken by a fey mood!
Kalebo withdraws from society...
Kalebo Has began a mysterious Game!
Hayato
Level 0
**


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2010, 05:52:05 PM »

Level keys really only serve to piss me off.

It's like, you work for a while to get some cool item, then learn that it's only really used for one specific dungeon or boss fight, then it's never useful again. Zelda games are very guilty of this.
Logged

The enemy's gate is down.
droqen
Level 10
*****


View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2010, 05:56:09 PM »

One awesome self-contained example of Fun Mechanic vs. Good Level Key vs. Dull Level Key

Zelda Songs.
Logged

gimymblert
Level 10
*****


The archivest master, leader of all documents


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2010, 07:08:32 PM »

One awesome self-contained example of Fun Mechanic vs. Good Level Key vs. Dull Level Key

Zelda Songs.

OCARINA (however anything after that was gimmick wand? wolf growl? you name it?  Facepalm
Logged

Kegluneq
Level 2
**



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2010, 08:25:14 PM »

Epona in Ocarina of Time could be seen as a fun mechanic.
There's plenty of sidequests you can't complete until you get Epona, but for the most part she's pretty much optional.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2
Print
Jump to:  

Theme orange-lt created by panic