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[JackieJay]

As far as I know, you can submit any game you made with xna to the Xbox Live Indie Games and they will accept it as long as it's not inappropriate or malfunctioning(and if you're part of the premium xna creators or something like that).

But what about the Xbox Live Arcade, how does it work ? Does it work the same way as XBLIG but with higher standards, so they only accept the best games ?

[Zenorf]

No it's not the same.

Most importantly you need a slot.
You need to kill someoene to get one of those. Or make a deal with a large publisher or microsoft.

There are also a huge number of extra rules you have to follow such as requiring online score boards.

It's a totally different game to XBLIG.

This link may be illegal here but if not, look here.
http://forums.xna.com/forums/t/3290.aspx

[moi]

basically you have to fork out thousands of dollars.

[Zenorf]

basically you have to fork out thousands of dollars.

All those links and stuff are irrelevant.
Moi pretty much summed it up in one beautifully cynical sentence.
i.e. If you have lots of money it's much easier to make lots of money.

[JackieJay]

Well more or less what I expected, thanks guies. 

[AndySchatz]

I very much believe that XBLIG is primed for a breakout hit (much bigger than Zombies, which recently crossed the 200K unit mark).  Monaco was originally intended to be a 6 week XBLIG experiment, but I started to get more ambitious than that around the 4 week mark.

[Impossible]

I very much believe that XBLIG is primed for a breakout hit (much bigger than Zombies, which recently crossed the 200K unit mark).

I agree. Even though XBLIG gets a lot of flack from the indie community it has some major advantages over XBLA (cheap, infinite slots, fast deployment time, requires far less technical knowledge).  Although I have issues with XNA (mostly performance and technical issues followed by lack of portability) it's sufficient for 90% of the games indies are making.  There is no reason people can't make most of the same types of games they are making in Flash, Game Maker, or even Unity with XNA.

[JackieJay]

Even though I think xblig has truckloads of potential and I agree that eventually it will grow, the problem is every game in the service will always be deemed as "the games that weren't good enough to be on the XBLA", and sadly that's almost always true.

[Ntero]

Even though I think xblig has truckloads of potential and I agree that eventually it will grow, the problem is every game in the service will always be deemed as "the games that weren't good enough to be on the XBLA", and sadly that's almost always true.

It could transform into 'games that aren't big enough to be on XBLA' just like XBLA games are 'games not big enough to be sold in stores'.  This requires more talent in the XBLIG community, but that seems to be picking up pace very quickly.

[Zenorf]

It could transform into 'games that aren't big enough to be on XBLA' just like XBLA games are 'games not big enough to be sold in stores'.  This requires more talent in the XBLIG community, but that seems to be picking up pace very quickly.

I doubt it.
XBLIG is a great platform that lets you be as creative as you like but the downside is that there is little to stop you being as dull, crappy and uninspired as you like. Hell, people have even re-skinned code samples and released them as their own game for a few quick bucks.

there is talent in the XBLIG community but their shouts can rarely be heard over the volume of the untalented and amoral crowd. I guess tat is what the dreambuildplay competition is for. To find the diamonds in the rough.

[r.kachowski]

there is talent in the XBLIG community but their shouts can rarely be heard over the volume of the untalented and amoral crowd. I guess tat is what the dreambuildplay competition is for. To find the diamonds in the rough.

you have to attribute at least part of this to typical microsoft inertia. the community is poorly structured to support developers and little is being done to address this.

consider newgrounds - a community based entirely around user generated content:

• the flash portal accepts all submissions from anyone, and as such attracts a massive amount of blatant bullshit, yet Newgrounds is considered one of the major places for quality flash content (games / animations)
• They manage this by having an active userbase who can vote and rate on submissions - submissions that have little to no merit are blammed, whilst others are allowed through.
• To view and rate a submission takes seconds, the only conditions are that the submission is of decent quality and does not contain illegal content
• Users gain voting power by continuously voting on submissions, and are rewarded via a levelling system which is displayed prominently on every user's forum avatar.
• the best submissions of the week, day, month, year, and of all time are displayed prominently and easily accessible from the main page. submissions can be voted into categories and collections so that users can find related content

compare with XBLIG - also based entirely upon user generated content: 

• XBLIG accepts all submissions from everyone who has paid a $90 fee, yet has a reputation for lowest common denominator games and shovelware.
• submissions are required to pass a peer review system, which is only accessible to those who have paid this fee - as such the pool of potential reviewers is incredibly limited. Having a game pass review can take anywhere from 3 days to over a month depending on your popularity (microsoft's own submissions and updates have suffered as a result of this).
• to review a game is a complex process involving xbox deployment, a series of semi-official checklists and an anal-retentive attention to detail (see above link for an episode of a reviewer intentionally corrupting a memory card before failing the game)
• users who review games are rewarded with "rep", which serves no apparent purpose
• the top rated and newly released games are displayed in their own section, after which they are relegated to alphabetical order in the catalogue (it is widely regarded that the only time a game can really sell is when it is in one of these categories)

tl;dr - not enough is done to highlight quality titles, to do so would require a large change in community structure - this is needed if xblig wishes to lose it's bad reputation. the $90 requirement is obviously a hindrance to potential games rather than a filter for dedicated developers. users don't have enough influence on xblig.

[Zenorf]

I disagree with absolutely nothing of what you just said. It's a shitty system.

I did once see a fantastically hilarious Teen titans tentacle rape cartoon on New grounds once but I suppose the quality of the workmanship was very good even if the artistic content was somewhat dubious (but in a good way).

[Chris Z]

Good to see some valid feedback Mr. Kachowski, rather than the usual uninformed bashing that XBLIG usually gets.  I am a friend of a friend to scoy (which you linked) and I know he's very frustrated with the way the XBLIG is being handled.  I share the same frustrations with the peer review process and I happened to just start this thread on TIGS.  The peer review system is awesome on paper, unfortunately the "premium" community is nowhere near the critical mass it needs for it to work and be agile.  It's the unfortunate reactionary solution to the initial dump of bad games and "apps" and needs to be tweaked somehow, maybe by reducing membership cost or forcing people to participate in the review process to keep their memberships (just as other "clubs" require people to attend meetings).

[moi]

I think everybody will agree that XBLIg is right now a fantastic opportunity for talented indie creators. With the numbers released at the end of last year we have seen many games bring more than $50k and a handful more than $100k.
And most of the line up of game is just total crap!
That means if you are able to produce a medium to good quality game with good polish, XBLIG is a very good venue.
I would do it myself f I had the time and if I didn't suffer of this XNA/.net/m$ allergy.
The keyword here being "good quality", that mean don't waste averybody's time if you want to produce flash quality games or zombie games or match 3 or games based around just a physics engine or iPhone joke apps, like what most of XBLIG games creators seem to produce.

Right now is a good time to get involved in this, as I'm sure Microsoft will sooner or later renege on  the contract terms as money starts flowing higher and higher.

[Perrin]

Jeez that thread on Kodu peer review sounds terrifying. Sounds kind of like the inmates are running the asylum on XBIG.

[Rob Lach]

If someone would start a website purely dedicated to reviewing XBLIG it'd go a long way.

[Stegersaurus]

If someone would start a website purely dedicated to reviewing XBLIG it'd go a long way.

I think you're making Rob cry
http://www.xnplay.co.uk/

[Zenorf]

there is also

http://www.worththepoints.com/ (a site with multiple reviewers and different tastes to rob)

http://www.xblig.co.uk/index.php (it's ugly but it's young)

There are probably a few others but none of these sites is yet big enough or popular enough to shed any sigificant light on the community.

[Geoffs]

There is also http://twofedoras.com/ where Brooks Bishop and I spend a great deal of time covering indies, with a particular emphasis on the XBLIG.

It's still a fledgling start up and only has a couple months of posts under its belt, but I think it's starting to get some solid traction in the space.

Anyways, that's enough of that self-aggrandizement crap. I apologies for not properly introducing myself in the appropriate thread, and shall accept whatever baptism by fire I have coming to me.

[obscure]

But what about the Xbox Live Arcade, how does it work ? Does it work the same way as XBLIG but with higher standards, so they only accept the best games ?

You would need to submit a game for concept approval and be a registered MS developer. You won't get either unless you have previous experience developing console/PC titles (IE you worked at a development studio) or you are already a successful indie (like Introversion or Behemoth).

MS also require you to meet a whole host of console technical requirements that add a huge amount onto the development process and you have to get your game through testing and certification. These require that you pay a very large amount of money or give up a large % of the revenue to MS. In short it isn't very indie friendly.