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[jcsymmes]

I am Working out the fessability of an idea and i was wondering if could have some help on a question.

I have an idea for a game with a production budget of say 300,000-500,000. A largish indie game with an indie game feel. The issue is that its a very large game in terms of media space. I am estimating that the final size of the game would come in at around 8-12 gigabytes-which is big enough that something like xbl or any other download(with the outlier of steam) would be no goes. Even Straight XBox would probabbly be out of the picture.

My question is How much does it cost per blueray to print up a Playstation disk? In terms of disks, box, certification, Sonys cut, etc. Iddeally i would like to know the cost to get a disk in your hands though i am not sure easy numbers like that exist.

I know that retailers typically take a half,and that publishers take a half as well. This is ignoring things like marketing and advertisting though i probabbly can't ignore them I am trying to figure out at what dollar amount we could afford to sell a playstation 3 game. 

The idea is such that hopefully that it would be an intresting, thoughtful six hour game that takes chances with its story and its content. I realize that a lot of games cost 60-70 dollars these days new-and i think at that price it would leave the customer pretty pissed. I am trying to figure out if its feasable not to piss them off.   

[Oddball]

Surely these are all questions you should be asking Sony.

[BrianSlipBit]

Surely these are all questions you should be asking Sony.

I agree with Oddball here.

I know that retailers typically take a half,and that publishers take a half as well.

Are you sure about that?  Where did you get those numbers from?

Also what kind of content is going to consume that kind of disk space, especially for an indie game?  Is this an interactive video of some sort where you plan on storing data in an uncompressed raw video format?

Is this even for real?

[jcsymmes]

Quote from: Oddball on Today at 09:31:22 AM
Surely these are all questions you should be asking Sony.


I agree with Oddball here.



Quote
I know that retailers typically take a half,and that publishers take a half as well.

Are you sure about that?  Where did you get those numbers from?

Publishers might vary but thats pretty standard for a retailer. Now You might be able to negoitate around them but its a good rule of thumb to throw some numbers around.

Also what kind of content is going to consume that kind of disk space, especially for an indie game?  Is this an interactive video of some sort where you plan on storing data in an uncompressed raw video format?

Thats more or less the idea about the video format. However its not an interactive video-its an action adventure game with cut scenes. Lots of cut scenes. compressed to standard blueray compression.

Thats about 8 gigs-you could down grade it a bit if you wanted-maybe get it in range you could put it on a DVD...however i think to go for traditional download service size is not going to happen. 
 
Despite having a lot of cut scenes the idea is that the game doesn't have a real plot. The idea is to make a game about contrast-a stylized ultra bloody action game, with a sweet gentle rommance scenes shot like an indie movie, at cofee houses zoos, etc.Scenes with ninjas and scenes discussing tennancy in common.

    I think cut scenes are one of the most intresting devolopment that have come in the last 10 years in games and i want to explore that as an indie game maker, beyond a this is your next mission kind of way. . Is it a great idea-i am not sure. is it workable-yeah i think so-a wii could pull it off theoretically. However i want to know if its feasable.  How much would it cost to put out a disk?

 

 

[Oddball]

If you are truly serious about this then contact Sony and pitch the game directly to them. They will tell you pretty much straight away if it is feasible or if they are even interested in such a game. I, and I suspect most of the forum users, have no idea about your dev. teams capabilities, investors interest, or the marketing strategy you wish to pursue, and those that have dealt with Sony before, and so know about the license costs, are probably under NDA's. There is no way really for any of us to advise you on the projects feasibility.

[Falmil]

Thats more or less the idea about the video format. However its not an interactive video-its an action adventure game with cut scenes. Lots of cut scenes. compressed to standard blueray compression.

Despite having a lot of cut scenes the idea is that the game doesn't have a real plot. The idea is to make a game about contrast-a stylized ultra bloody action game, with a sweet gentle rommance scenes shot like an indie movie, at cofee houses zoos, etc.Scenes with ninjas and scenes discussing tennancy in common.

    I think cut scenes are one of the most intresting devolopment that have come in the last 10 years in games and i want to explore that as an indie game maker, beyond a this is your next mission kind of way. . Is it a great idea-i am not sure. is it workable-yeah i think so-a wii could pull it off theoretically. However i want to know if its feasable.  How much would it cost to put out a disk?

Um, what? Maybe its just me, but that does not sound all that good.
A. If this is an indie project, how are you going to have more than 8 GB of (mostly) cutscenes and graphics? Sounds like a large amount of art and graphics work that would end up being for a AAA title team. The current budget would probably not be enough to fill a BluRay with HD graphics.
B. A game isn't a movie, so what exactly is your actual game idea? Aside from mentioning all these cutscenes, I didn't hear anything about how the game would be. Cutscenes and graphics can only bring a game so far before lack of gameplay reveals how shallow a game is. The kinds of games that have cutscenes as a key feature include the Final Fantasy series and MGS4, their success being influenced by the popularity of the series. Also, you have to consider that alot of games are going NO cutscene to try to keep the player immersed and interacting with the game.  
Obviously, I don't know anything about you or this project after only 2 posts, but so far it doesn't sound too good. Have you tried prototyping this on the PC or something? More information would probably clear some things up.

[jcsymmes]

I am Working on the prototype Falmil-

a) I was planning to use a 16 millimetter camera, and shoot the real world. Real trees, real buildings, real people, etc. To do the cut scenes This way is realitivily cheep to do(well its possible to do it extremily expensivly but i was planning to do it cheeply). Will this be AAA level? No not really-a lot of the impressivness of current graphics is that they are CG. Where impressed by the illusion. But i think its well within the posibility to shoot an hour of footage for 50-100,000 dollars and spend the rest on the game.
B) The game itself-is an action adventure game, in which you control a 3D Character as the murder and kill people. The art style of the characters and the backgrounds is abstracted, to a defenite degree. 

Note i am being delibreatly vauge here. The fact that i am not reveling a lot of details is purposeful and is not becuse there isn't details to give. I can say that the idea is that every 20 minutes or so of game play there is a two-five minute cut scene. While lots of games do have the idea of no cut scenes to immerse the players-i kind of want to play with disimersion. of jaring layers of reality.   

I am sorry i am not saying a lot-however i suspect if the game is ever released a lot of these questions will come up.  This may not be a bad thing.


 

[aeiowu]

definitely keep your secret ideas close to the chest. we _will_ steal them. 

[Impossible]

Without a working prototype no platform holder or publisher is going to take you seriously, and even then you'll need the FMV game equivalent of the Blair Witch Project if you want to release as a retail disk game for PS3 or 360 with a budget of $500K.

[BrianSlipBit]

Without a working prototype no platform holder or publisher is going to take you seriously, and even then you'll need the FMV game equivalent of the Blair Witch Project if you want to release as a retail disk game for PS3 or 360 with a budget of $500K.

I think that pretty much goes without saying at this point, or so you would think.  With that being said original poster, you know what they say -- "if you have to ask..."

[jcsymmes]

Okay at the risk of stating some obvious indie statements in my defense:

1. The idea of indie games is that the take subject matter and game types that major publishers won't do.

2. A lot of the reason they won't do it is becuse of instutalized logic of games. People don't want to play metroidvania style games.2D puzzles are dead. Games are about spending 20 million dollars, on 'safe' material(that last one is a little unfair but the general point exists. 

3. To FMV. Fmv came of age when a sega cd or even a playstation  1 could not really handle it. With the significant exception of C&C * no one has really tried handling it in the modern era -when the systems could handle it perfectly-you would need 8 gigs of hard drive to do it but thats what the PS3 has. Its part  of the systemic logic of video games thats what gamers don't want and that like 2d hand drawn stuff its dated and old.

4. FMV has also always been done on greenscreens done first person, Etc.  Theres lots of historic systemic logic that have nothing to do with what can do. This is not the blair witch progect. The blair witch progect had a budget closer to 10,000 fr one thing. If you go to an independent..film house  you can see a lot of movies some of which have fairly well known actors done for 100,000. If nothing else if i do something like that it would stand out pretty much in the game world.
 
5. i am not asking any major publisher for 500,000 at this time. The reason i am asking this is i am trying to justify funding to independent sources who i might say  lack some of the institutional biases. One of the people i am working with(who is not related to me i might add) has never played a video game before-i had a 15 minute discussion with her about Mario. Its fascinating and i highly recomend everyone try it. You can learn a lot of video games from her.

6. I am assuming that Sony will if you ask them will certify just about anything thats not AO.(side note: for all the bitching about the 100 slots a year on XBLA if you asked them to put it on a disk i am sure microsoft would be happy to do so). They probabbly ask a publisher which helps with a distribution- but if they didn't have to fund a game i think a lot of smaller ones and maybe some of the major ones wouldn' mind doing that for a cut of the proffit. that one is more of an assumption but its a reasonable one, but the less risk your having them the assume the stronger the logic.

7. The reason i am asking and why i don't think it hurts to ask and why indie games in general make some financial sence- you don't have to sell that many copies to get back 500,000. How many i don't know.

8. I can't know until i know the per unit cost from sony to make a playstation disk.

Now some people suggested i ask Sony, which is actually a very good response one that i am going to do-however i don't think it was illogical to ask here.

Scott Hillman




 

[Falmil]

1. The idea of indie games is that the take subject matter and game types that major publishers won't do.

2. A lot of the reason they won't do it is becuse of instutalized logic of games. People don't want to play metroidvania style games.2D puzzles are dead. Games are about spending 20 million dollars, on 'safe' material(that last one is a little unfair but the general point exists.  

People DO want to play metroidvania games. Its just different types of people and different sized audiences. With all the choices (console, digital disribution on console system, handheld, iPhone, PC), its not all that difficult to determine a reasonable target for your game. 2D puzzle games sell on the iPhone and other platforms.

3. To FMV. Fmv came of age when a sega cd or even a playstation  1 could not really handle it. With the significant exception of C&C * no one has really tried handling it in the modern era -when the systems could handle it perfectly-you would need 8 gigs of hard drive to do it but thats what the PS3 has. Its part  of the systemic logic of video games thats what gamers don't want and that like 2d hand drawn stuff its dated and old.

And that's why no one watches cartoons and anime anymore because we have 3D rendering, right? FMVs and cutscenes, being part of the game, rely upon the game's style. JRPGs have plenty of 2D animated cutscenes which often fit because the games might be cel shaded. Many other games just have prerendered 3D cutscenes. I don't know too much about live action cutscenes, but you have to remember that in addition to making a game, a live action cutscene requires you to practically make a movie as well. The actors, set, script, and recording equipment all play into getting it right.

4. FMV has also always been done on greenscreens done first person, Etc.  Theres lots of historic systemic logic that have nothing to do with what can do.

You're going to have to clarify what you mean here.

5. i am not asking any major publisher for 500,000 at this time. The reason i am asking this is i am trying to justify funding to independent sources who i might say  lack some of the institutional biases. One of the people i am working with(who is not related to me i might add) has never played a video game before-i had a 15 minute discussion with her about Mario. Its fascinating and i highly recomend everyone try it. You can learn a lot of video games from her.

Um, isn't indie game development about NOT getting aid or funding from big companies in order to first create your game? Also, I'm not sure that getting advice ABOUT games from someone who has NEVER played one is a great idea.

 
6. I am assuming that Sony will if you ask them will certify just about anything thats not AO.(side note: for all the bitching about the 100 slots a year on XBLA if you asked them to put it on a disk i am sure microsoft would be happy to do so). They probabbly ask a publisher which helps with a distribution- but if they didn't have to fund a game i think a lot of smaller ones and maybe some of the major ones wouldn' mind doing that for a cut of the proffit. that one is more of an assumption but its a reasonable one, but the less risk your having them the assume the stronger the logic.

No idea what Sony or Microsoft would or wouldn't do, but considering that the PSN/XBLIG are available options to some developers, I doubt they are going to be so easy to sway for a console disc release. You don't see a whole lot of blatant crapware/shovelware on the shelves for their consoles. If a cut of the profit was the only worry, there wouldn't be many problems. Whether the game will profit AT ALL, is the issue. Nobody wants to put money up to support a project and have it go down the toilet.

7. The reason i am asking and why i don't think it hurts to ask and why indie games in general make some financial sence- you don't have to sell that many copies to get back 500,000. How many i don't know.
8. I can't know until i know the per unit cost from sony to make a playstation disk.

How much would you charge for this mysterious cutscene game? Will people want to buy it at that price? Will there be enough of them to at least break even?

I'm sorry if I offend you, but it doesn't sound like you're being objective in whether your idea is feasible or even wanted. There have been PLENTY of action adventure games "in which you control a 3D Character as the murder and kill people". The question is what sets your game apart from other similar ones. If its just the cutscenes, then you really need to ask yourself (and many other people via a game pitch/summary) whether its going to be enough.

[William Broom]

Without wanting to comment on the actually quality of your idea, I do think it sound completely unmarketable. The entire concept is really fucking weird! Don't get me wrong, I love weird things, most people on this forum love weird things, but the general game-buying population does not. I really doubt that you could make back $500,000 by selling this game.

[jcsymmes]

Famil Said

I'm sorry if I offend you, but it doesn't sound like you're being objective in whether your idea is feasible or even wanted. There have been PLENTY of action adventure games "in which you control a 3D Character as the murder and kill people". The question is what sets your game apart from other similar ones. If its just the cutscenes, then you really need to ask yourself (and many other people via a game pitch/summary) whether its going to be enough.

you don't offend me at all. To an extent i don't really want this conversation now though i don't mind it. I think some of your other points miss some of my arguments but thats okay. I am also not at this time prepared to give the details-not becuse i am worried about stealing but it premature. However  i can say why i want to make an 8 gig game.

 I want to explore montauge.

 Montauge in the classic film sence of having two things that don't necessairly go together but the mind forces them to. While this is usally considered an art of movies games play around with it in well to degrees -to go back to Jonathan Blow agian, Braid is all montauge as its all about contrasting super mario brothers with a dense meta narative. Bioshock, Left 4 dead,Modern Warefare,WOW all of these use montauge.

Now you could argue this is just theme and story is irelevenant to gameplay and making the game good. I would argue that montauge is a mechanic.  It works and it makes money, becuse people want to think-everyone does from children, to teenagers, to adults, they want to be challenged at some level. And it does make money. 

now your right the game can't be shovelware and it can't be uttercrap-and i don't want it to be by any means. I want to make a fun game(agian what game-not going to say). however i belive that there is sweet spot that i want to financially find to make something like this work.

William Broom said

[Without wanting to comment on the actually quality of your idea, I do think it sound completely unmarketable. The entire concept is really fucking weird! Don't get me wrong, I love weird things, most people on this forum love weird things, but the general game-buying population does not. I really doubt that you could make back $500,000 by selling this game./quote]

thanks William and i really mean that. But I'll tell you a secret that has worked for Kandinsky to Goddard to IDOS to Jonathan Blow.

 I'll put a girl in it.

 

[Falmil]

Everyone loves unnecessary love interests.

[Dugan]

"montauge"? - Did you mean montage? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_montage_theory

[Zenorf]

Famil Said

I'm sorry if I offend you, but it doesn't sound like you're being objective in whether your idea is feasible or even wanted. There have been PLENTY of action adventure games "in which you control a 3D Character as the murder and kill people". The question is what sets your game apart from other similar ones. If its just the cutscenes, then you really need to ask yourself (and many other people via a game pitch/summary) whether its going to be enough.

you don't offend me at all. To an extent i don't really want this conversation now though i don't mind it. I think some of your other points miss some of my arguments but thats okay. I am also not at this time prepared to give the details-not becuse i am worried about stealing but it premature. However  i can say why i want to make an 8 gig game.

I'm sure I'm going to get crusified for saying this but when getting a publishing deal setting your game apart in terms of gameplay isn't that important. The important thin is "who will buy this?" As an example (and this is the dangerous part) I'm pointing at Super Meat Boy. That doesn't really do anything new at all. It's just stylish but it got enough hype and a big enough fan base for someone powerfull to get behind it and say "Yeah. That could make some cash"

So If someone at Sony thinks that about your game they might well put money into it. More likely they will want to see a demo first. If you're very lucky you could get a cash drip feed to develop a demo but that's rare these these days.

I want to explore montauge.

Please tell me that is your Sony pitch.

Give Me 500 thousand Dollars. I want to explore montauge.

Awesome!

[obscure]

1. The idea of indie games is that the take subject matter and game types that major publishers won't do.

1. Sony don't want indie games on PS3 only AAA games. That means million dollar dev budgets and million dollar marketing budgets. At most you could get approval for PSN (if you can prove you have the money) but otherwise they will point you at PSP mini - neither of these options will support the project you are planning.
2. Sony won't approve you as a PS3 publisher so you would need to sign the project with an approved PS3 publisher - as you already pointed out your game is indie of the type that publishers don't want.

6. I am assuming that Sony will if you ask them will certify just about anything thats not AO.(side note: for all the bitching about the 100 slots a year on XBLA if you asked them to put it on a disk i am sure microsoft would be happy to do so). They probabbly ask a publisher which helps with a distribution- but if they didn't have to fund a game i think a lot of smaller ones and maybe some of the major ones wouldn' mind doing that for a cut of the proffit. that one is more of an assumption but its a reasonable one, but the less risk your having them the assume the stronger the logic.

You assume wrong. Sony and MS will only approve projects that they believe fit their vision for their console. They specifically want games that use the hardware features of their platform. A giant publisher like EA might have the clout to push through any project they want but, as you point out, your project isn't something that EA would want.

Your assumption of how publishers do business is also flawed. It costs money to make the disks/packaging and they also have to pay a sizable license fee to Sony/MS for every single disk. Publishers also know that a PS3 game with no marketing won't sell. That means that even if you are funding development they still need to put a huge amount into marketing. This means they need mass market sales numbers and that means it needs to be a mass market product (which indie games aren't).

7. The reason i am asking and why i don't think it hurts to ask and why indie games in general make some financial sence- you don't have to sell that many copies to get back 500,000. How many i don't know.

As above your understanding of the publishing business is flawed. There is a lot more than $500,000 to recoup.

In short you are looking at the wrong platforms. You should be targeting an open platform like PC.

[William Broom]

I'd like to ask a simple question jcsymmes, have you ever developed any game before? If so, can we see/play them?

[jcsymmes]

William Broom Said:

1. The idea of indie games is that the take subject matter and game types that major publishers won't do.[/quote]
1. Sony don't want indie games on PS3 only AAA games. That means million dollar dev budgets and million dollar marketing budgets. At most you could get approval for PSN (if you can prove you have the money) but otherwise they will point you at PSP mini - neither of these options will support the project you are planning.
 
These are terms that fundementally don't mean any so perhaps i am throwing them around a lot-but Sony has a list of 648 games released for its console. The standard defenition of AAA might be-'it had a production budget of over 30 million dollars'. Are all 648 games AAA? I would say probabbly a 100, 150 at most. There is a world of AA, and A games-which a lot of indie games probabbly strattle the line of. There are plenty of games Like Big Buck Hunter,Stormwise, and others that have budgets in line with what the larger indies recive.

At the same time the sony is working on the move, which is suggesting that sony wants in on the family friendly market which is typically much cheeper to devolop.  Consoles do get strength by pure numbers and they gain strength by variety. 

I am considering your suggestion Broom as i go forward on the game, as the more research i do suggests that the money sony recives per copy is more then were willing  to  pay to go exclusive. Bluerays are still somewhat expensive.  They more research i do suggest that they also may not by the only anwser to my original complaint- "its too large".

However i don't think this is inherently an issue-in a kind of is it possible sollution to the problem kind of way, one that can not yet be dismissed out of mind.