next »

[Soulliard]

As I've posted in another thread, I'm considering adding guarding back into Indie Brawl. It was originally removed, because no one used it, so it was an unnecessary complexity. But I think it's time to give this mechanic another try.

There are a few different ways I could see implementing this:

1) Guarding stops most attacks, and there's no limitation to how many times you can guard against an attack. Each player would need to have a quick, unblockable move (like a grab) to prevent others from guard-spamming.

This idea is nice, because it is simple. But it would mean adding to or modifying every character's moves, so they all have a grab-type move.

2) Guarding stops attacks, but there is a limit to how often you can guard. Characters will have shield hp in addition to regular hp, which slowly recharges over time, but is reduced each time the character blocks an attack. When out of shield hp, several things could happen:
a) The character would be stunned, leaving him vulnerable. This is essentially the method SSB uses.
b) The character would be unable to guard until the shield hp are fully restored. The character will be defenseless for some time, but will still be able to attack.
c) If the character has fewer shield hp than the damage of an attack, the attack isn't blocked. I like this option, because unlike a and b, it doesn't take control away from the player.

In typical play, a character should not run out of shield hp. It is there simply to prevent shield-spamming.

This option is simple, without allowing for abuse. But it does require a little extra complexity, and one more variable that would need to be communicated to the player.

3) This option is the same as the second option, except that characters lose shield hp over time for as long as the guard button is pressed, instead of when hit. This could be combined with the second option.

Without being combined, the main issue with this option is that, with precise timing, it would still be possible to guard-spam for a very long time.

4) Guarding mostly stops knockback, but only reduces attack damage by a percentage. Blocking is still better than just taking an attack, but you can't rely on it entirely.

This solution would work well for HP mode. But for No HP (aka Smash) mode, there would need to be a mechanic in place to allow characters to be knocked back even if they guard-spam.

5) Guarding works a bit like Turner's counter, but without the counterattack. It stops all attacks for the next few frames, but leaves the character vulnerable briefly afterwords.

I don't really like this idea since it might make guarding too difficult. And against fast attacks or multi-attacks, guarding could be useless.

6) Instead of guarding, the character could dodge to the side (or possibly in other directions). This would give brief invulnerability (like option number 4) and also reposition the character. This option could possibly be combined with others.


Of the above options, I like 2c and 4 the most, but I am curious to hear what others think.

Here are some other issues guarding raises:

-We would need to determine how guarding is controlled. I see three obvious options:
a) Guarding gets its own button. This option works best if dodging is implemented.
b) Down is the guard button. This means that guarding could only be used on the ground. However, this would require some changes to the current control scheme, since down is currently used to drop through floors. It prevents having to add a new button to the controls, though.
c) Characters could guard instead of idling. There's never a reason to idle instead of guard, and this way, we don't have to change the controls. The problem with this method is that it doesn't feel quite right, since your character is doing something without any input.

-Can you guard in the air? If not, what happens if you try to?

-Moves would need to be rebalanced. In particular, slow, predictable moves might need a boost. Ranged characters might also need some boosts.

-Would there be unblockable attacks? If so, which moves would be unblockable? (I would recommend that large explosive attacks, grabs, very slow and powerful moves, and powerful items be unblockable)

-I like the idea of a well-timed guard allowing you to reflect projectiles. This gives every character some sort of anti-projectile defense, which could even out the playing field a bit.

-Guarding could differ from character to character, so each character has a unique guard. For example, Naija's guard could be combined with her reflector, and GK's guard could be combined with has projectile absorption.

-Should guarding be directional (so it only protects against attacks from the front)?

-Some characters might get an extra movelist slot out of the change. The Blue Knight, for example, no longer needs his shield move.


Obviously, I'm very interested to hear people's thoughts on this. Even if their opinion is that guarding shouldn't be added at all.

[Winterous]

I also think that 2c+4 is the best way.
So, a strong attack can break a shield, and until they have enough shield power they can't block a big attack at all.

Perhaps make it so your power bar will not block ANY damage from an attack too strong for it, and a large percentage (75% or more) if it does, and subtract the appropriate amount from the shield (lighter characters could have less power than heavier ones, because they can escape more easily).
So perhaps, instead of just having 100 as the number, it could be a high number, and just use the actual damage values of the attacks to subtract, and increase the power value for stronger and slower characters.
This would also add the flavoursome little bit that heavier (fatter) characters take longer to recover their shield, because they aren't as quick witted.

Anyway, when a shield 'breaks', by getting hit by an attack stronger than the current power, you get knocked back a distance based upon how far 'over' it goes, and also suffer some additional damage (to discourage shield spamming).


And I do like the idea of unique shields, I'll ponder about some of them in a little bit.

[mokesmoe]

I would prefer dodging. In smash, I never guard, but I dodge frequently, dodging seems more efficient to me. And when you say "brief invulnerability (like option number 4)" you mean number 5, right? Dodging animations would just have to be single frames, so that wouldn't be that hard.

However, I like the idea of unique blocks too. It would give a reason to block if we had both dodging and blocking. I think my favourite methods would be 2a or 2b. 2c sounds like it would be confusing, because you would be still blocking but it wouldn't be working. I think a combination of 2c and 4 would be neat. If you don't have enough shield hp, it reduces the damage by however much shield hp you have left, and reduce, but not remove knockback. If you can't regenerate shield hp while blocking, the attack would knock you away, and end you're block, but if you can, I would suggest taking away the vertical part of the knockback and removing the stun, so you just slide backwards a bit. You could still get pushed off the edge.
You could also apply this slide method to 4 by itself, whitch might be a good idea.

Darn it ninja'd

[Blaizer]

Give every character an idling move (GK's absorb, Naija's reflect, Blue Knights shield, etc.). Put them on the same key for every character (say, neutral S), then just let them dodge by pressing arrow keys while holding that move. Means you don't have to have a new key. Means every character is still unique, and it only means every character needs some sort of idling move.

[Winterous]

You know what?
I can't think of a DAMN thing for unique blocks.
Naija - Reflector shield, already a move.
Turner - Counter-attack, already a move.
Trilby - Nearest thing I can figure is Flit OH WAIT ALREADY A MOVE.
Gish - Heavy form OH WAIT.

Ok, I don't think unique blocks are going to work.
So, a pretty straight-forward guarding mechanic would do it, and then replacing a few redundant moves with other things.
So, just reduced damage, reduced knockback, but if your shield breaks those are kinda flipped around, you get hurt more by the hit, and knocked back by it.
I do like your idea of horizontal knockback Mokesmoe, but it would still have to be reduced (because getting launched into the air helps you control yourself, but if you're stuck on the ground you're screwed).


Dodging, maybe a double-tap down?
Dunno, but I do think that down as the block key is a good way to go.


*before I posted*
Blaizer, that's an alright idea, but what about 'block' moves that serve another function?
Like Gish's heavy form, that wouldn't make sense if it was S instead of vS.

[shig]

WALL OF TEXT ALERT

As much as I like grab moves, option 1 would be a huge load of work. Plus, not all characters have material to come up with a grab.

2c is a lot less intuitive than 2a or 2b.
 
Option 3 is my favorite, provided it's combined with 2a or 2b. It should be combined because guards that actually block an attack contribute much more to stalling the pacing of a fight than random guards that don't really block anything, so it makes sense to discourage further blocking from a guy who has been blocking a lot of attacks recently.

Option 4 would probably not work so well for ring-out matches, I think.

Option 5 is basically... Parrying? It's a bit too advanced to be the standard guard, in my opinion. Maybe a character could have it as a special move, tho. But the basic guard should be more straightforward.

Option 6 wouldn't really do what a standard guard does, and you could have some characters have dodge rolls assigned to their >S or \/S, but is worth considering. After all, the main reason guarding felt useless was because, if I recall correctly, moves in IB tend to have very little end lag, and punishing end lag is the most fun thing about blocking(although I didn't think it was useless and Naija's block move is still very usefull. It just doesn't feel very accomplishing without the endlag punishing part of it).
 Also, considering the ammount of ranged attacks this game has, a roll could be very useful.

Give every character an idling move (GK's absorb, Naija's reflect, Blue Knights shield, etc.).

I'd rather not. Most of these moves have start/end lag that makes the player vulnerable and you are prevented from doing anything else while these are being used, so the timing becomes a big part of the fun of using them(blocking in SSB has a small, but incredibly annoying end lag, too, btw). Plus the controls would feel really awkward for trying to use any of these in the air or just after running.

[Amadeous]

In addition to this, what about instant blocking? That is, blocking something near the exact frame it hits. In most fighting games this puts the defense at an advantage, as they recover from blockstun quicker, allowing them to counterattack. It also usually reduces or nullifies the damage you'd take through guarding, or in SSB's case, reduces how much your shield shrinks. Finally, it changes how far back you move from your opponent, either you don't move as far back, meaning easier to counterattack, or you move much farther back, meaning your opponent can't followup.

Also, should we make guarding like in SSB, where guarding defends from all angles, or should it just guard in the direction you're facing. So if, say you block an attack, your opponent can jump over you quickly and attack from overhead and hit behind you, breaking your guard.

[Contrary]

YES! I've been waiting for this.

Unblockables would be one pretty good way to get around guard spamming, but heavy attacks with a lot of blockstun and shield damage would be just as good. I know that SSB64 for sure had shield combos which if the first hit was blocked and the rest of the combo was executed correctly, your shield would break no matter what. Something like that might work but then again, they never played much of a part in the game (unless you're Ness) what with grabs being so OP.

I think that having a little bit of chip damage would work as well, where the blocker takes a little tiny bit of damage even after a successful block, so that dodging is still preferable despite the greater risk.

Really I think that blocking would completely change the dynamics of this game and take a lot of work to balance. Like does the attack have too little blockstun? Can Trilby get a free taser on you? Is that a fair risk/reward? Does this attack have too much blockstun? Is that character able to spam this move without the other guy being able to interrupt? Can x character spam all these grea moves with no risk while y character risks eating 30 damage with every attack?

Spot dodging or parrying would be great as well, but personally I think having a block ability no matter what would be the best.

I'm really looking forward to what you guys come up with.

[gimymblert]

Well i see that pretty redundant with vS ... I have comme to think of this as the block and it is already unique and versatile to each character.

Plus one reason is that 3 keys (on keyboard) is a hot LOT, especially on 2P

Maybe buff up the vS for close combat instead of adding a new button? Adding new rules to it?

In this game move is more important, i would see dodge as more useful. Especially for melee character who have hard time when noob fall in the game against a range character such as liero.

[nothingxs]

My solution would be to give everyone a throw (throws are important in the rock-paper-scissors aspect of fighting games). Additionally, everyone's block has a hp, and once the hp breaks 0 it has to 'recharge' and the act of breaking your guard leaves you momentarily stunned (not as long as SSBB, about 1-2 seconds of guard break stun, roughly 90 frames).

So essentially, a combination of 1 and 2a/2c. I also like 6, because it adds to every character's mobility, and mobility is a good thing.

Just remember that all of these options (in fact, guarding period) will reduce the effectiveness of ranged characters by a lot (dodging will do it way more so), so you may want to include melee options.  Just including a throw though might be a sufficient close range option if most basic throws set up the thrower into being able to combo in a move of theirs.

[mokesmoe]

The problem with that is not every character has any material to get a throw from, and most throws would look odd without a being thrown animation, witch would probably be different for different trows and would be a lot of spriting.

I don'y think dodging will effect ranged attacks as much as blocking will. With perfect timing you can dodge any attack, but if your opponent has perfect timing too and a fast enough attack, they can abuse the ending lag of the dodge. Spamming projectiles would probably be the easiest way of hitting an opponent between dodges too.

Whether we have dodging or not also depends on how the controls would work. If there's a separate button, it would be easy to add both dodges and blocking if there was a separate button for blocking. However, I think the best way to have blocking would be to set it to down, and have a double tap drop through floors. I know double tapping would be fine, as Brawl uses that for dropping through platforms on the wiimote alone. Would be easy to program too.

[William Broom]

Throws don't have to be literally grapple attacks. They could just be 'sparkly guard breaking attacks' and they would have the same place in gameplay.

[Soulliard]

They have to be fast attacks, though. Slow unblockable attacks could be an ineffective counter against guarding, since characters could easily stop blocking and sidestep the attack or interrupt it with a jab.

[Soulliard]

Here's what I'm thinking...

Characters have shield hp in addition to regular hp. Shield hp slowly goes down while a character is guarding, and slowly regenerates when not guarding.

If a character is hit with an attack while guarding, the attack deals no damage and little knockback, and the guarder is stunned for 2 or so frames. It also reduces shield hp proportionally to the attack's damage.

If a character runs out of shield hp, the character is briefly stunned, and can't guard again until shield hp are fully recharged.

If the guard button is pressed immediately before the attack hits, it will reflect the attack if it was a projectile.

Guarding will work slightly differently for different characters. Some characters have more shield hp than others, and some have a longer period to reflect projectiles.


I am debating between 3 implementation options, ranked from easiest to hardest to implement:
1- Characters guard by pressing down. They can't guard in the air. Dropping through platforms is accomplished by double-tapping.
2- There is an additional button, the G button. Guarding is accomplished by pressing S, and dodging is accomplished by pressing direction+G. Characters can dodge but not guard in the air, but if they do so they can't attack until they land. Dodges are very character-specific. Some characters have much quicker or farther dodges than others.
3- As option number 2, except that characters also have a grab attack tied to G+A or G+S.

[Contrary]

Will you be adding a buffering system? I know how much you are against senselessly difficult execution.

[Soulliard]

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

[Winterous]

Here's what I'm thinking...

Characters have shield hp in addition to regular hp. Shield hp slowly goes down while a character is guarding, and slowly regenerates when not guarding.

If a character is hit with an attack while guarding, the attack deals no damage and little knockback, and the guarder is stunned for 2 or so frames. It also reduces shield hp proportionally to the attack's damage.

If a character runs out of shield hp, the character is briefly stunned, and can't guard again until shield hp are fully recharged.

If the guard button is pressed immediately before the attack hits, it will reflect the attack if it was a projectile.

Guarding will work slightly differently for different characters. Some characters have more shield hp than others, and some have a longer period to reflect projectiles.

I think this sounds good, go with it.

1- Characters guard by pressing down. They can't guard in the air. Dropping through platforms is accomplished by double-tapping.

I think this is the best way, but instead of double-tapping to go through platforms, just push jump while holding down.

[Soulliard]

Since jump might be tied to the up key, that wouldn't work for some control set-ups.

[Winterous]

Since jump might be tied to the up key, that wouldn't work for some control set-ups.

Aah ok.
Well, double-tap it is then

And yeah, I think my ideas for the shield were a bit intricate, doncha think?

[mokesmoe]

Those aren't really 3 different control schemes as much as they are "do we want dodging and/or throws?"
As I stated earlier, I don't want throws. I do want dodging, but I like the simpler controls too, so I'm torn on that one.