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[Dragonmaw]

You are right, Steam is not an insignificant market.  However, it is not a market that caters to the audience that would be interested in a game like Cave Story.  That list of the top sellers at the moment I personally describe as 'Gamer games' because they are generally purchased and enjoyed by people who already consider themselves hardcore gamers.  Kind of like an opposite  of casual game.  I place Cave story to be more in tune with an audience interested in Super Mario Brothers Wii, than with CoD:MW 2.  And as mentioned before if Nintendo offers exclusivity bonuses, it could be an intelligent avenue to drop PC in order to get a stronger leg up in a market that caters more to your specific target audience.

Chances are hardcore gamers would buy Cave Story because it's nostalgic. Casual gamers may or may not have exposure to older titles like Castlevania or Metroid (the building blocks of Cave Story), but hardcore gamers certainly would. Saying Cave Story doesn't appeal to hardcore gamers is just silly.

You're right though, it wouldn't appeal to the kind of person that primarily plays MW2. Hardcore gamers is the wrong demographic there. Frat gamers is the right one. But out of all the games on the Steam list, only two (MW2 and BC2) are definitely part of the frat gamer demographic. Arguably Just Cause 2. The rest are pretty nerdy games. I mean, M&B? Torchlight? Those are hardly "frat games." Settlers is built on a classic franchise that most remember with fond nostalgia (AKA the second game).

[JackieJay]

Dragonmaw: Yeah Cave Story do have a small fanbase when you compare it with the other games(series) in wiiware such as mario, pokemon, megaman, bomberman and so on. On the wiiware cave story is competing with those, and not with freeware games.

This is indie gaming. You have to rely on your fanbase to be successful. Your fans are what buy and play your games. Indie gaming is even more personality centric than mainstream gaming.

The thing is, this isn't indie gaming anymore. At least not in a small scale. Like I said previously, publishing a game for the wiiware is quite different from releasing it for the PC. On the PC your fanbase is very important because they will be a large part of your customers and will help get the word out there by posting about the game on forums, blogs, sites etc...
Things don't really work that way for the wiiware.

You honestly believe that if Cave Story Wii (Remake, Enhanced, whatever) had been released on PC concurrently to other platforms, it would've sold worse and would not have received critical praise? What? That doesn't make sense at all.

It doesn't ? Like I said previously, there is an already free version (that some say it's better) for the PC, that's the reason number one. That's what I call competing against yourself. It just doesn't make sense.Reason number two, a few days after the release the game would be available in every major torrent/wares site/portal. Believe me. Reason number three, Cave Story feels and plays like a console game. It's better suited for the Wii than it is for the PC. There are many other reasons, but these were the first ones that came to my mind.
And I didn't say the game wouldn't have received critical acclaim if it was released for the PC. My point was that the game was being successful critically and sales-wise and getting attention from major mainstream sites and magazines, which proves Nicalis didn't fuck up after all. Perhaps if it was released for the PC it wouldn't have received that much attention, given the fact that it's easier to stand out in a console than it is in the PC, specially when the game was already released for that platform, and as freeware.

[JackieJay]

"well, we shouldn't release this game on PC cuz pirates!" is not valid.

That doesn't matter, though, because it's a gross simplification and misrepresentation of the arguments actually being presented.

The only real argument I've seen is an appeal to authority. So.

Or perhaps it's easier to believe in that than it to admit you're actually wrong.

[Dragonmaw]

The thing is, this isn't indie gaming anymore. At least not in a small scale. Like I said previously, publishing a game for the wiiware is quite different from releasing it for the PC. On the PC your fanbase is very important because they will be a large part of your customers and will help get the word out there by posting about the game on forums, blogs, sites etc...
Things don't really work that way for the wiiware.

Uh, yes they do.

It doesn't ? Like I said previously, there is an already free version (that some say it's better) for the PC, that's the reason number one. That's what I call competing against yourself. It just doesn't make sense. Reason number two, a few days after the release the game would be available in every major torrent/wares site/portal. Believe me. Reason number three, Cave Story feels and plays like a console game. It's better suited for the Wii than it is for the PC. There are many other reasons, but these were the first ones that came to my mind.

1.) People say the free version is better because the Wii version is broken. If the Wii version wasn't broken, people wouldn't be saying this.

Furthermore, if you offer a distinctive upgrade over the original, people will buy it. As long as the freeware version is available, Cave Story will always be "competing against itself," regardless of whether or not it jumps platforms. This isn't a bad thing. Look at it this way: freeware version is a demo, enhanced version is the full game.

As long as you provide consumers with a distinct advantage, they will approach your game with interest. If they played the freeware game and liked it, chances are they'd buy the remake and, gasp, enjoy it!

2.) It was available on every major torrent portal the day it was released on WiiWare. This has nothing to do with it being released on PC, and everything to do with pirates just being pirates. Don't cop-out.

3.) That's arguing semantics. Look at it this way: PC is just another console. Therefore Cave Story fits on it. Or why not put Cave Story on PS3? After all, Symphony of the Night was a Playstation exclusive in the day, and it inspired Cave Story.

So, basically, there's no reason for it to not be on PC.

And I didn't say the game wouldn't have received critical acclaim if it was released for the PC. My point was that the game was being successful critically and sales-wise and getting attention from major mainstream sites and magazines, which proves Nicalis didn't fuck up after all. Perhaps if it was released for the PC it wouldn't have received that much attention, given the fact that it's easier to stand out in a console than it is in the PC, specially when the game was already released for that platform, and as freeware.

Hi there.

Or perhaps it's easier to believe in that than it to admit you're actually wrong.

"Paul is wrong cuz Tyrone has 15 years of experience!"

This was your argument for like 3 pages.

[PaleFox]

Incidentally it is possible and easy to pirate WiiWare games. People do so. You are operating under the misapprehension that somehow being on a console solves all problems, and using a flawed premise as a fallback is not going to work.

"well, we shouldn't release this game on PC cuz pirates!" is not valid.

That doesn't matter, though, because it's a gross simplification and misrepresentation of the arguments actually being presented.

The only real argument I've seen is an appeal to authority. So.

Or perhaps it's easier to believe in that than it to admit you're actually wrong.

Grossly oversimplifying the situation is totally helpful and conducive to helpful dialogue!

Maybe start using some actual facts.


EDIT: The first torrents for Cave Story Wii are already up and have been for days. Man I am glad we avoided having piracy over bittorrent by not releasing on the PC!

[Perrin]

EDIT: The first torrents for Cave Story Wii are already up and have been for days. Man I am glad we avoided having piracy over bittorrent by not releasing on the PC!

Surely the issue with PC vs Console piracy is not merely about availability of the pirate release but of people's ability to take advantage of them. I know my Wii or 360 are not set up in any way I could play pirate games on them but PC pirates, no problem.

[Dragonmaw]

Surely the issue with PC vs Console piracy is not merely about availability of the pirate release but of people's ability to take advantage of them. I know my Wii or 360 are not set up in any way I could play pirate games on them but PC pirates, no problem.

Any idiot can soft-mod a Wii if they feel so inclined. You can't really do that on a PS3 or 360. You have to hard-mod them. Also, Cave Story Wii is playable using a GameCube/Wii emulator on the PC, and it plays fine on mid-high range hardware.

If the release on the Wii was to dissuade piracy, it was a bad choice, PSN or XBLA would've been a better one.

[Ntero]

1.) People say the free version is better because the Wii version is broken. If the Wii version wasn't broken, people wouldn't be saying this.

Furthermore, if you offer a distinctive upgrade over the original, people will buy it. As long as the freeware version is available, Cave Story will always be "competing against itself," regardless of whether or not it jumps platforms. This isn't a bad thing. Look at it this way: freeware version is a demo, enhanced version is the full game.

As long as you provide consumers with a distinct advantage, they will approach your game with interest. If they played the freeware game and liked it, chances are they'd buy the remake and, gasp, enjoy it!

2.) It was available on every major torrent portal the day it was released on WiiWare. This has nothing to do with it being released on PC, and everything to do with pirates just being pirates. Don't cop-out.

3.) That's arguing semantics. Look at it this way: PC is just another console. Therefore Cave Story fits on it. Or why not put Cave Story on PS3? After all, Symphony of the Night was a Playstation exclusive in the day, and it inspired Cave Story.

So, basically, there's no reason for it to not be on PC.

But the only thing it offers over the free PC version is Graphics.  Yeah, making up some non-existant new product and then arguing it should be on the PC is easy, but the product that Nicalis is selling is directly competing against itself to an audience who has already completed the game for free, and trying to charge $15.  That would have been the PC situation.  Sure if he made a sequel, or added 50% more content, but he didn't.  That is not the product he was marketting.  So he didn't put it on the PC, because there is already a free PC version of the game he is making.  

Yes, that competition also competes with the Wii sales, but in an indirect way, because he is marketting to new customers on a platform frequented by more casual gamers, who are not as likely to know what Cave Story is in the first place.  On the PC that competition is MUCH more direct.  

Also having a Wii torrent, does not mean everyone has a modded Wii.  You can purchase a softmod or modchip(30-40$), wait for delivery, and then must do much more work than a PC comparison (download torrent, install, use crack).  This makes console piracy significantly lower, as it is no longer the easy care free alternative it is on the PC.

Chances are hardcore gamers would buy Cave Story because it's nostalgic. Casual gamers may or may not have exposure to older titles like Castlevania or Metroid (the building blocks of Cave Story), but hardcore gamers certainly would. Saying Cave Story doesn't appeal to hardcore gamers is just silly.

No, indie game afficionados would.  Despite what this small circle of Tigsource individuals knows about Cave Story, it is a relatively unknown product.  same with Knytt, same with Spelunky, and most other indie games.  Freeware Indie games are not some massive, known by all industry.  Yes indie game afficionados know about it, but to your average Hardcore gamer, who plays mainstream games, they may have heard the name Cave Story, but likely will not have a deep nostalgic desire to buy what is essentially a free game with new graphics and new bugs.

[TwilightVulpine]

Surely the issue with PC vs Console piracy is not merely about availability of the pirate release but of people's ability to take advantage of them. I know my Wii or 360 are not set up in any way I could play pirate games on them but PC pirates, no problem.

Where I live, almost every game store sells hard-modded consoles(and pirated games).

Just saying.

[JackieJay]

Uh, yes they do.

So releasing the game for the wiiware or for the PC is the same thing ? Okaaaay

1.) People say the free version is better because the Wii version is broken. If the Wii version wasn't broken, people wouldn't be saying this.

Furthermore, if you offer a distinctive upgrade over the original, people will buy it. As long as the freeware version is available, Cave Story will always be "competing against itself," regardless of whether or not it jumps platforms. This isn't a bad thing. Look at it this way: freeware version is a demo, enhanced version is the full game.

..but like you said the demo seems to be better than the full game. So why spend my money ?
Either way you're missing the point, the game was released to the wii "to reach a new and bigger audience" (quoting both Pixel and Nicalis). Cave Story fans will bitch if they don't have a wii. But if they do, they will buy it. But the game wasn't made specifically for them, it was made mostly for new people that didn't know or didn't play the freeware game.
Releasing it for the wii makes it possible for new people to play it, as well as any old fan owning a wii, which I believe are still quite a few.

2.) It was available on every major torrent portal the day it was released on WiiWare. This has nothing to do with it being released on PC, and everything to do with pirates just being pirates. Don't cop-out.

What ? Anyway, I searched the game in every pirate/warez/torrent site I know and I couldn't a single link to Cave Story. In the other hand I found several links of VVVVV, braid and pretty much every other known PC indie game.

3.) That's arguing semantics. Look at it this way: PC is just another console. Therefore Cave Story fits on it. Or why not put Cave Story on PS3? After all, Symphony of the Night was a Playstation exclusive in the day, and it inspired Cave Story.

There's huge differences between a computer and a console.
I think Cave Story wouldn't fit the playstation 3 as well as the wii because for several reasons that I won't go into because that's beside the point. Though I still think it would fit the PS3 or the xbox360 better than the PC. There's nothing's like sitting on your sofa after a hard day of work, grabbing your controller and play a few minutes of Cave Story. It's a much more casual experience so to say, I can't explain it any better. By what you've been saying, I assume you don't own a console, or if you do you don't turn it on often.

"Paul is wrong cuz Tyrone has 15 years of experience!"

This was your argument for like 3 pages.

Hum.. no, actually my argument was more like "Paul doesn't know the reason behind Nicalis's decisions so he can't really tell if they were bad business/PR decisions or not. In addition, Tyrone worked as a PR manager for Nintendo along several other jobs at different publishers and developers while all Paul did was some freeware games made in game maker and sold one game by himself selling around 15 units every month, so in any case I believe the former as a bit more say on the subject of "business decisions" than the latter."

EDIT: Seriously people, are you actually discussing if there is more piracy in the wii or in the PC ? Of course there is piracy in the wii, the same way there is in the xbox or ps3, even if not as much.
But there's no comparison with the PC, you can have a 50$ worth game just by doing a simple google search. I have a wii almost since it's launch and I've never attempted or knew anyone playing wii games without paying for them. Anyway, I don't think it's the only reason or even a major reason for not releasing it for the PC.

[deathtotheweird]

You must not have searched hard at all, because it was easy as piss for me to find multiple links to the Wii version of cave story on the internet.

[PaleFox]

Are you some kind of idiot? I mean, I try to not insult people, but it is almost pathetically easy to mod a Wii to play burned copies of games, or indeed WiiWare games. It is one of the reasons many people I know have purchased said console...

In many ways it is exactly the same as downloading a cracked PC game. You have to do a bit of setup, perhaps, but you don't have to have any hardware or anything special at all -- just an SD card, a willingness to break the law, and Google.

[Dragonmaw]

I lost my incredibly wordy post, so instead I'm just going to summarize what I said.

But the only thing it offers over the free PC version is Graphics.  Yeah, making up some non-existant new product and then arguing it should be on the PC is easy, but the product that Nicalis is selling is directly competing against itself to an audience who has already completed the game for free, and trying to charge $15.  That would have been the PC situation.  Sure if he made a sequel, or added 50% more content, but he didn't.  That is not the product he was marketting.  So he didn't put it on the PC, because there is already a free PC version of the game he is making.

Yes, that competition also competes with the Wii sales, but in an indirect way, because he is marketting to new customers on a platform frequented by more casual gamers, who are not as likely to know what Cave Story is in the first place.  On the PC that competition is MUCH more direct.  

Also having a Wii torrent, does not mean everyone has a modded Wii.  You can purchase a softmod or modchip(30-40$), wait for delivery, and then must do much more work than a PC comparison (download torrent, install, use crack).  This makes console piracy significantly lower, as it is no longer the easy care free alternative it is on the PC.

Assuming it was functional, it offers improvement in every area. This is enough incentive to buy it.

Modding the Wii is pathetically easy. Any chump that wants to pirate can do so. It takes about as much work as piracy on the PC does, only you don't need a crack for every single game. Instead, you only need a single crack to use once to make it play images!

So releasing the game for the wiiware or for the PC is the same thing ? Okaaaay

Not what I said. Marketing-wise, though, yes. Marketing is not drastically different between platforms, and most likely never will be. You're trying to equate technical differences to marketing differences, which is pure nonsense.

..but like you said the demo seems to be better than the full game. So why spend my money ?
Either way you're missing the point, the game was released to the wii "to reach a new and bigger audience" (quoting both Pixel and Nicalis). Cave Story fans will bitch if they don't have a wii. But if they do, they will buy it. But the game wasn't made specifically for them, it was made mostly for new people that didn't know or didn't play the freeware game.
Releasing it for the wii makes it possible for new people to play it, as well as any old fan owning a wii, which I believe are still quite a few.

Assuming they fix the issues, the freeware version will be nowhere as good as the original. I've said that the quality of the game has to do with how broken it is. Assuming they fix the problems, it would be worth the money that I spent for it.

Saying that Cave Story was not remade because of its fans is idiotic. Cave Story was remade for new and old players alike. Without the fans, do you seriously think Cave Story would've been remade? Of course not. There wouldn't have been reason to.

What ? Anyway, I searched the game in every pirate/warez/torrent site I know and I couldn't a single link to Cave Story. In the other hand I found several links of VVVVV, braid and pretty much every other known PC indie game.

Hi there.

There's huge differences between a computer and a console.
I think Cave Story wouldn't fit the playstation 3 as well as the wii because for several reasons that I won't go into because that's beside the point. Though I still think it would fit the PS3 or the xbox360 better than the PC. There's nothing's like sitting on your sofa after a hard day of work, grabbing your controller and play a few minutes of Cave Story. It's a much more casual experience so to say, I can't explain it any better. By what you've been saying, I assume you don't own a console, or if you do you don't turn it on often.

I own most consoles back to the SNES generation, and a few further back. I play them (multiple ones) daily. Normally, I enjoy playing my PS3 and Sega Saturn the most. Just because I think Cave Story Wii should be available on PC doesn't mean I don't love consoles. Way to reduce that argument.

"Paul is wrong cuz Tyrone has 15 years of experience!"

Hum.. no, actually my argument was more like "Paul doesn't know the reason behind Nicalis's decisions so he can't really tell if they were bad business/PR decisions or not. In addition, Tyrone worked as a PR manager for Nintendo along several other jobs at different publishers and developers while all Paul did was some freeware games made in game maker and sold one game by himself selling around 15 units every month, so in any case I believe the former as a bit more say on the subject of "business decisions" than the latter."

You literally just repeated what I said, but wordier. Way to go.

EDIT: Seriously people, are you actually discussing if there is more piracy in the wii or in the PC ? Of course there is piracy in the wii, the same way there is in the xbox or ps3, even if not as much.
But there's no comparison with the PC, you can have a 50$ worth game just by doing a simple google search. I have a wii almost since it's launch and I've never attempted or knew anyone playing wii games without paying for them. Anyway, I don't think it's the only reason or even a major reason for not releasing it for the PC.

Man you just keep going at it.

[Μarkham]

I searched a torrent site for "Cave Story" and found Cave Story for Wii as the 6th result.  It's about 27mb, with 11 seeders.  It has a positive comment that reads "Installed with WAD Manager 1.4, works great."

[Dragonmaw]

As an advance warning (not like anyone needs it), DO NOT LINK TO ANY TORRENTS OF CAVE STORY OR SAY WHERE YOU FOUND A TORRENT OF IT.

This isn't a piracy forum.

[Ntero]

You literally just repeated what I said, but wordier. Way to go.

Ok, this is not my post it was responding to, but this is ridiculous.  The original arguement was that Paul said he was in a similar situation and had equivalent if not better business knowledge and sense.  It has absolutely nothing to do with an appeal to authority because the arguement was directly about authority.

For example, If I say I am more qualified to talk about Cave Story lore than Pixel, and someone begins to talk about his experience with Cave Story, this is NOT an appeal to authority.  In any way.  Because the conversation was directly about who had the authority in the first place.

Also...

Yes, that competition also competes with the Wii sales, but in an indirect way, because he is marketting to new customers on a platform frequented by more casual gamers, who are not as likely to know what Cave Story is in the first place.  On the PC that competition is MUCH more direct.  

Assuming it was functional, it offers improvement in every area. This is enough incentive to buy it.

Modding the Wii is pathetically easy. Any chump that wants to pirate can do so. It takes about as much work as piracy on the PC does, only you don't need a crack for every single game. Instead, you only need a single crack to use once to make it play images!

Improvement in every area does not always mean it's enough incentive to buy it.  If I give you a YoYo for free, and then charge $20 for a YoYo with better balance, the second YoYo does not immediately have a very strong incentive to buy, unless it is significantly better.  Because the first one is free, and because that means that the improvements alone have to be worth the entire price of the product.  This is before the points you glossed over where I mentioned the PC audience being much smaller even before the fact that they have a free version, for numerous reasons.

Personally, with the minor additions to the Cave Story game, I do not consider Increased Graphics worth $12 when the gameplay is left untouched.

Second I have a link: http://torrentfreak.com/the-most-pirated-games-of-2009-091227/

I know it's only a Top 5, but it at least represents a point of scale.  The #5 PC is still
60% more than the #1 Wii.

The arguement was that the Wii has significantly lower rates of piracy then the PC.  The fact that the Wii is easy to pirate really is irrelevant.  I could find some wikipedia fallacy if you like, but I think it's easier just pointing out that it doesn't make much sense and is off topic.  So long as there is less piracy on the Wii by a significant margin, releasing on the Wii is going to suffer from less piracy then releasing on the PC.

[JackieJay]

hum dude, posting wikipedia articles on logical fallacy won't make your points any more valid. That's what I call "avoiding the discussion". Go for the wikipedia article on it if you want.

Now on the few things you've said that I can actually reply to:

Saying that Cave Story was not remade because of its fans is idiotic. Cave Story was remade for new and old players alike. Without the fans, do you seriously think Cave Story would've been remade? Of course not. There wouldn't have been reason to.

If the game has fans then it has to good, at least for some people. If it was good for them, then perhaps it will be good for some people who've never heard of it before. Then remaking it will probably be worth the money invested on it !

So yes, no fans no remake. And yes I do think the game was released mostly to meet a new audience, like Pixel and Nicalis themselves said. If that's a bad business decision ? Judging from the results so far, I don't think it was.

Not what I said. Marketing-wise, though, yes. Marketing is not drastically different between platforms, and most likely never will be. You're trying to equate technical differences to marketing differences,

I was talking market wise. I don't know where you go that idea that I was mixing technical differences with marketing but every post of yours I discover many new things I supposedly said so it's nothing new.

Anyway, publishing and marketing a game for the appstore/wiiware/xblig/xbla is quite different from doing the same for the PC. The markets are different, the competition is different, the distribution channels are different, etc...  and so different marketing methods are needed.

Marketing for the PC is much, much harder and also much more important. While publishing a game for the wiiware for example, a simple "submit the game to Nintendo, wait for good reviews and pray for sales" marketing plan could work just fine.

[Dragonmaw]

hum dude, posting wikipedia articles on logical fallancy won't make your points any more valid. That's what I call "avoiding the discussion". Go for the wikipedia article on it if you want.

Now on the few things you've said that I can actually reply to:

Saying that Cave Story was not remade because of its fans is idiotic. Cave Story was remade for new and old players alike. Without the fans, do you seriously think Cave Story would've been remade? Of course not. There wouldn't have been reason to.

If the game has fans then it has to good, at least for some people. If it was good for them, then perhaps it will be good for some people who've never heard of it before. Then remaking it will probably be worth the money invested on it !

So yes, no fans no remake. And yes I do think the game was released mostly to meet a new audience, like Pixel and Nicalis themselves said. If that's a bad business decision ? Judging from the results so far, I don't think it was.

Not what I said. Marketing-wise, though, yes. Marketing is not drastically different between platforms, and most likely never will be. You're trying to equate technical differences to marketing differences,

I was talking market wise. I don't know where you go that idea that I was mixing technical differences with marketing but every post of yours I discover many new things I supposedly said so it's nothing new.

Anyway, publishing and marketing a game for the appstore/wiiware/xblig/xbla is quite different from doing the same for the PC. The markets are different, the competition is different, the distribution channels are different, etc...  and so different marketing methods are needed.

Marketing for the PC is much, much harder and also much more important. While publishing a game for the wiiware for example, a simple "submit the game to Nintendo, wait for good reviews and pray for sales" marketing plan could work just fine.

I'm giving up on this. Your arguments are so full of logical fallacies it's not even worth my time any more. You also come to the most retarded, bone-headed conclusions, and ignore any reasoning by anyone other than yourself. I may as well just ignore you. Not even worth my time to attempt to troll, much less engage you in a real discussion.

[Ntero]

I bet that means I got lumped in with him then

[JackieJay]

I think pretty much anyone who disagreed with him got.

Anyway,my arguments are probably full of logical fallacy because you interpret them the way you want and not how I meant to be interpreted.
Ntero gave a pretty obvious example of what I'm talking about.
In addition you keep twisting and distorting what I say until you've got something you can reply to. And when you don't you post wikipedia articles on logical fallacy.

Well, at least I tried.

edit: btw I just found a link to cave story wiiware too. Wasn't that easy, and still I doubt Cave Story will reach the 90% piracy rate of World of Good for the PC.