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[Dragonmaw]

I think pretty much anyone who disagreed with him got.

No, pretty much just you!

[deathtotheweird]

JackieJay, you are full of horseshit.

[Ntero]

I think pretty much anyone who disagreed with him got.

No, pretty much just you!

Psh that's silly you never even gave me single Logical Fallacy link and I still get lumped into the full of logical fallacy pile.  I smell Cop out.

[JackieJay]

JackieJay, you are full of horseshit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I just had to. 

[deathtotheweird]

perhaps you should read your own link. Especially the common misconceptions part. I just felt like it needed to be said, so I said it.

[JackieJay]

Gratuitous verbal abuse or "name-calling" itself is not an argumentum ad hominem or a logical fallacy.

My bad.

[PaleFox]

I find you detestable.


It is bad enough that you insist on ignoring any evidence to the contrary of your position, but you are smug about it. You are like a politician, but without any of the possibility of becoming rich, famous, or having people agree with you. What evidence do you provide? None.

And yet you sit there pretending to be above it all. It is really rather sad.

[Ntero]

I could say the same of the other side.

Two big paragraph posts and all I got was one lousy quote on my weakest point.

That's ok though, damn Nicalis for ruining Cave Story by revitalizing it, and helping it get off to a roaring start in sales.

[Μarkham]

edit: btw I just found a link to cave story wiiware too. Wasn't that easy, and still I doubt Cave Story will reach the 90% piracy rate of World of Good for the PC.

How hard is it to type "Cave story" into the search bar of your average torrent site?

[eugeneius]

Oh man, when Melly wakes up and sees what you guys have done to this place he's going to be pissed.

I'll try to be civil and somewhat constructive, and maybe the thread will get back on track slightly. JackieJay, I get the feeling what made Dragonmaw give up on the argument was this:

publishing and marketing a game for the appstore/wiiware/xblig/xbla is quite different from doing the same for the PC. The markets are different, the competition is different, the distribution channels are different, etc...  and so different marketing methods are needed.

Which basically boils down to "marketing for consoles is different than marketing for PC because various aspects of it are different". I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of categories of logical fallacy, but that's clearly providing no information whatsoever.

I agree with you that selling .exe files from your own website requires radically different marketing techniques; the kind that Paul Eres was talking about earlier. But I don't think anyone is suggesting Nicalis do this. If Cave Story were released on a portal like Steam, it would have comparably strong DRM to the WiiWare version, and would benefit from the "shop window" effect where a frontpage feature can result in huge numbers of sales. So no casual piracy to drain the sales from the Wii, and plenty of exposure to potential new customers (as you said, Cave Story seems popular to the TIGSource crowd but this is a very small corner of the Internet).

Steam also has a more diverse userbase than just "gamer gamers"; they sell PopCap games, not to mention a good handful of quality indie titles. They even have an Indie Games section!

[KareemK]

so that's why DS cave story never saw the light...
although i don't get if pixel or nicalis are responsible for this... it's all very sad.

also this thread is on its way to lockville

[Rumrusher]

world of goo started as a "game in a week" project? so it kinda make sense as how that got pirated so many times since all the content added since their free version, cave story wii is just a port of a year to make game. so if stupid logic works pirates would only share 2-4 copies of this game than the 1,000,000 that rip world of goo also what's not to say all those 1,000,000 aren't just that game in a week copy that got renamed just to fool those who want the game.

[Dragonmaw]

Two big paragraph posts and all I got was one lousy quote on my weakest point.

I apologize. I actually had this big rebuttal to your point that I thought was elegant and refined. And then lost it. So I just summarized what I said.

Sorry if you felt that I didn't give your side the attention it deserved.

Also, sorry for butting in again:

Which basically boils down to "marketing for consoles is different than marketing for PC because various aspects of it are different". I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of categories of logical fallacy, but that's clearly providing no information whatsoever.

I forget the official term for it, but it's basically "these two things are related in this way in this instance. Therefore, all aspects of these two things are related in this way." It's a logical fallacy because it draws a generalization from a single conclusion.

[Valter]

Oh man, when Melly wakes up and sees what you guys have done to this place he's going to be pissed.

I do have something to contribute, though. Here are my claims, and a possible justification for Wii-only:

1. Some people own Wiis and a computer.
2. Therefore a multi-release would require some people to choose between the computer and Wii versions.
3. Some people will choose to buy the computer version instead of the Wii version.
4. No matter how much the total amount of sales is effected overall, the amount of Wii sales will be reduced.
5. Less sales means lower chance of hitting the WiiWare #1 spot (or by extension any PC milestones)
6. No #1 spot = less publicity = less sales.

Feel free to point out any incorrect assertions.

(Also the fallacy you mentioned is Argument by Generalization: "because one part of x is true, x must be true" or some such thing)

[JackieJay]

I find you detestable.


It is bad enough that you insist on ignoring any evidence to the contrary of your position, but you are smug about it. You are like a politician, but without any of the possibility of becoming rich, famous, or having people agree with you. What evidence do you provide? None.

And yet you sit there pretending to be above it all. It is really rather sad.

I haven't been ignoring any evidence to the contrary of my position, I have been ignoring you, that's different. I know when it's worth discussing with someone and when it's not. Your tone and the following quotes make it pretty obvious that you are mostly looking for a reaction rather than a serious discussion.

Are you some kind of idiot?

I find you detestable.

btw where's that evidence ? The initial discussion was about whether or Nicalis made a bad decision by making Cave Story a wiiware exclusive. I thought the fact that the game topping the charts was enough evidence that perhaps it wasn't a disastrous decision after all.

How hard is it to type "Cave story" into the search bar of your average torrent site?

I did that and that's why I didn't find at first. I won't go into details on how I found it for obvious reasons.

Which basically boils down to "marketing for consoles is different than marketing for PC because various aspects of it are different". I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of categories of logical fallacy, but that's clearly providing no information whatsoever.

If I were to explain every little difference I'd be here all day, so I gave one example that I thought would illustrate my point:

Marketing for the PC is much, much harder and also much more important. While publishing a game for the wiiware for example, a simple "submit the game to Nintendo, wait for good reviews and pray for sales" marketing plan could work just fine.

And I thought it was kind of obvious that marketing for the wiiware is quite different from marketing for the PC, so no big explanations were needed.

But of course it's easier to say I'm a prick than actually telling me why I'm wrong.
Saying I'm "detestable" or "full of horseshit" is hardly convincing.  

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i agree with dragonmaw that jackiejay isn't going to change his mind, but would just like to point out that ID sold more than 15 copies average a month; it sold 3000 copies over the last two and a half years, which averages to around 100 a month. not all were at full price though (may were for the pay what you want sale or other sales).

also i find the constant references to logical fallacies ridiculous. none of us argue logically. the conceit that any of us are arguing logically and without mistakes, as if we could see the true world, is ridiculous. only when we recognize that people are by nature irrational can true communication take place. logical fallacies should be welcomed, not rejected. that said, the only real ad hominem arguments (as opposed to mere name calling) in
this thread were against me (saying that since i don't have much experience in doing what he does i can't be right and he can't be wrong). even were that true, sometimes even very experienced people make mistakes that inexperienced people can see through.

also, that it's the best-selling game on the wii on a particular day and in the top 10 in a particular week happens to many new releases, it's not particularly odd for a game to be the best-selling game on the day it was released (since it gets a lot of news on release day). the real test will be whether it's the best-selling or in the top 10 for the year, not the week or a day.

[JackieJay]

Just one thing, if you prove me wrong I won't have a problem admitting it; this is a discussion, I never claimed to be the owner of all truths.  The problem is, nobody brought me evidence that I'm wrong, or at least something that I consider to be proper evidence.

Also don't forget ad hominem arguments aren't logical fallacy, even if people can use them as such. They can be valid arguments. I even used a half assed example to illustrate what I said.

Now on the sales of cave story: the fact that Cave Story is still being featured in the frontpage of almost every major nintendo/wii gaming site (as well as reviews from the mainstream press) might be a good indicator that sales probably will continue to be high in the coming weeks, even if not as high as they were. I have the impression the game got noticed by more people now, only a week after it was released, than it was in the 6 months span or so after it was released as a freeware game (or better saying, after the english translation got out). In addition, even if it was on the top only on the release day (and/or in days after), the fact that Cave Story beat Pokemon, Mario, Megaman, bomberman and other massively popular franchises, is not to be underestimated, I think.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

that cave story is selling well isn't evidence that you're right that nicalis shouldn't care about the community. so i'm not sure how evidence that it's selling well is proof of anything. your logical line seems to go like this:

a) nicalis's decisions (about removing youtube videos, not answering community questions, and so on) are good because they're professionals who know what they are doing.

b) the game is selling well, which is proof that nicalis knows what it's doing.

that's about it -- you can see how little sense that makes when it's laid out like that, right?

[JackieJay]

Here we go again:

I never (with emphasis on NEVER) said Nicalis's business decisions were good. Or bad for that matter.
I never (with emphasis on NEVER) said Nicalis shouldn't care about the community and press (note the emphasis on press, the fans aren't the only ones that aren't getting the answers they want).

What I said exactly was that without knowing the reasons behind those decisions it's hard to reach any conclusions on anything.

Do you really believe they do what they do just because they feel like it ? Turning the fans against them for no apparent reason ? Makes sense, specially considering the dude worked as PR manager for Nintendo. I don't know, I think that counts for something, don't you think ?

Of course if you twist what I say it will hardly make sense. Do my post make sense to you now ?

The fact that Cave Story is selling well proves that Nicalis's might not be business dummies after all. And also that the decision to release it for the wiiware wasn't as bad as some people said, you seem to be mixing different discussions.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

you just repeated what i just said, but in different words.

you're now saying: 'i'm not saying their decisions are good, but do you really think their decisions could possibly be bad? that they don't know what they're doing? the game is selling well: that proves they're geniuses!'

but that's just the same thing.

and yes, i really do believe their decisions could be bad, that they can make mistakes now and then. do you really believe that they are infallible, that every single decision they make is correct?