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[saimo]

Hello,

BOH is going to be distributed via new channels soon, and again I found myself wondering: did I include the right stuff in the demo? I was never really sure about it, so I thought I'd better ask here. Please bear with me for a while...

First of all, despite what I said in the introduction, there is a starting point which I've always been and still am totally sure about: I don't want the demo to be crippled as regards functionality, so that people are able to taste all the aspects of the game.
With that in mind, the natural limitation that comes to mind is restricting the play time: yet, rather than hard-coding a time limit (a solution I don't like because it affects the enjoyment of the gameplay), I chose to include only few of the many missions available in the full game.
Therefore, my problem became: what missions should I include? This has always been a hard choice. In fact, if I included only easy missions, players would not really feel how deep and intense the game is; if I included only hard missions, players would be scared away; if I included missions of varying difficulty, from easy to hard, I feared I would put just too much stuff in the demo - much beyond what is needed to wet the player's appetite.
At some point, I believed I had found the solution: including an easy mission, to get the player started, and a multi-phase mission with a per-phase increasing level of difficulty (phase 1: very easy; phase 2: easy; ...; phase 5: very hard), to let the player submerse gradually into the game and appreciate it. It didn't took long before I realized that this didn't really work out: many still found the multi-phase mission too hard. So, I added a bunch of tutorial-like missions to introduce the game to the player more gently. Eventually, I even replaced the easy mission with another much more gratifying easy one.
Now, I'm afraid that the demo contains too much stuff: the multi-phase mission alone provides hours of play, after all. Maybe I should remove it? But how can I get the player to discover the true nature of the game without something of that kind? Or maybe the other missions are already sufficient? Or maybe that doesn't really matter?
I can't decide. What do you think?

Thanks for your attention.

[Notch]

When is the game most fun? If you can find a "hook", that's probably what you want to put in the demo. Then end it on a high note, keeping the player wanting more.

I'm not scared away by difficulty, buy I am scared away by being confused. Or in other words, I'm fine with losing as long as I understand WHY I lost and not lost just because I didn't understand the interface.

As for having a too big demo, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Focus on getting enough in there to get the player addicted. If it takes several levels, let it do so.
I would suggest throwing the player directly at the most fun part of the game, though.

[saimo]

(I'm in a hurry so this reply is rushed.)

Notch, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Generally speaking, I agree. The problem with BOH is that there is no single/most fun point: the fun part is the overall experience. Also, as regards the difficulty, BOH's interface/controls are very simple, but the game's nature is intrinsically obscure, being it based on exploration of deadly and puzzling mazes.

[obscure]

Why not let them play the fun early/easy level and then go into a video of all the cool stuff that they will get access to in the full game. That way they get to play the game, see see the cool stuff later, want it, but are left hungry for more.....

[saimo]

Why not let them play the fun early/easy level and then go into a video of all the cool stuff that they will get access to in the full game. That way they get to play the game, see see the cool stuff later, want it, but are left hungry for more.....

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a "fun early/easy level" suitable for the purpose: the game is a maze exploration and action shooter, so the more complex the mission is, the funnier and the more satisfying the playing experience is. The "easy levels" are certainly fun (especially for who is not an experienced player), but, being simple, cannot represent the true nature of the game (i.e., who tries them cannot really understand how involving the experience can be)
That said, yes, a trailer is already available, but it doesn't solve the problem: I need the demo to let people appreciate the game and to get them to want for more

Thanks for your feedback

[William Broom]

I wouldn't worry too much about include too much playtime in the demo. I think very few people would be likely to say "Oh well, I've had three hours of fun out of this demo. Why bother paying for 10 more hours?" If they do think that, they probably weren't interested enough in the game to buy it even if it had a shorter demo.
The only risk I can see in having a long demo is that if it makes up a large chunk of the total game (like 40% or more) then players might feel disappointed with the full version.

I know Immortal Defense had a large demo, with 1/3 of the game's levels and all the towers unlocked by the end. Maybe you could ask Paul if he has figures on his demo conversion rates?

[saimo]

I wouldn't worry too much about include too much playtime in the demo. I think very few people would be likely to say "Oh well, I've had three hours of fun out of this demo. Why bother paying for 10 more hours?" If they do think that, they probably weren't interested enough in the game to buy it even if it had a shorter demo.

mmm... sounds reasonable. Thanks

The only risk I can see in having a long demo is that if it makes up a large chunk of the total game (like 40% or more) then players might feel disappointed with the full version.

Right. Luckily, this is not the case.

I know Immortal Defense had a large demo, with 1/3 of the game's levels and all the towers unlocked by the end. Maybe you could ask Paul if he has figures on his demo conversion rates?

1/3 is a lot, IMHO. Well, I'm not going to pester him directly - but, of course, I'll be glad if he takes part to this discussion.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i don't measure conversion rate anymore, but it varied between 1.5% and 0.5% for the first year, which is pretty standard (so it seems it wasn't hurt or helped).

i'd recommend that for story-based games, use longer demos, because a player getting interested and involved in a story and characters takes longer than getting involved in simple mechanics.

the reason i use 1/3 for my games is just tradition: doom, commander keen, and old dos shareware in general usually was set up in 3 episodes: first episode free, second two paid. the first episode was 1/3 of the full trilogy.

unfortunately this doesn't work quite as well for non-linear games; saturated dreamers is non-linear so i'm unsure yet what to do for the demo. i may just allow the player to collect three (any three) of the nine "functions" that the player has to collect, but that the three the player collects can vary by playthrough (they could restart it and collect a different three, and see the entire game that way, except for the ending / areas that require more than three functions).

[saimo]

i don't measure conversion rate anymore, but it varied between 1.5% and 0.5% for the first year, which is pretty standard (so it seems it wasn't hurt or helped).

Speaking of measurements, a mistake I made is that I didn't check the effects of the changes I made to the demo

i'd recommend that for story-based games, use longer demos, because a player getting interested and involved in a story and characters takes longer than getting involved in simple mechanics.

Agreed.

the reason i use 1/3 for my games is just tradition: doom, commander keen, and old dos shareware in general usually was set up in 3 episodes: first episode free, second two paid. the first episode was 1/3 of the full trilogy.

unfortunately this doesn't work quite as well for non-linear games;

By the way, BOH in (mostly) non-linear as well.

saturated dreamers is non-linear so i'm unsure yet what to do for the demo. i may just allow the player to collect three (any three) of the nine "functions" that the player has to collect, but that the three the player collects can vary by playthrough (they could restart it and collect a different three, and see the entire game that way, except for the ending / areas that require more than three functions).

It sounds like a good solution, but not knowing the game is hard to say. The only - obvious, I guess - thing that I feel like adding is that of course the non-accessible areas should be the biggest part of the game.